Ack! What to do when your SO belongs in Etiquette Hell?

In My Humble Opinion
81

[QUOTE=wolfman]
No it’s not about respect. It’s about showing off wealth. Respect is in deeds and actions, not appearances. It is a pathetic cheapening of to whole Idea of respect to associate it with something as worthless as person appearance.
[/QUOTE]

I always find this completely laughable. My dress up clothes are often much cheaper than my casual clothes - after all, I expect my casual clothes to wear through Saturday after Saturday - that dress for weddings - I’ll wear to three weddings where I will sit around, maybe dance a little, and go home. Semi-formal “cocktail” wear is ridiculously easy to find in every style, size, designer and fashion at second hand stores.

There are people who can look at you and know you are in last years clothes, that your labels are not the “right” brand. But that isn’t what we are talking about. We aren’t talking about having to have this year’s Kate Spade purse - we are talking about wearing a shirt with a collar, long sleeves and a tie.

82

I had a similar battle with the mister a few years ago over whether he ought to wear a jacket and tie to an interview. He put up a hell of a fight, insisting that “no one wears ties anymore at biotechs and tech places, I’ll look like a bozo if I do!” Hints that the interviewee ought to look a degree better than the employees fell on deaf ears.

Well, he went in khakis and a turtleneck tee, but he got the job after all so I shut my mouth. Later on, a few hints he dropped revealed to me that he didn’t care at all if he got the job and that he was enjoying being unemployed and supported by me - a point which I’m sure he didn’t want to bring up and argue at the time.

83

[QUOTE=Zabali_Clawbane]
Such a one as that lost my interest back when I was single. Sure, it was July, and hot. However, they were informed that their roommate’s girlfriend was bringing over a friend to introduce to them to see if perhaps she might consider the idea of getting to know them, and perhaps eventually date them. He didn’t even bother to comb his hair, or put on a shirt. I was introduced to a wild haired, shirtless fellow, who never saw me again after that day. If you cannot be bothered to groom yourself and put on even a tank top to meet a lady, you do not get graced with that lady’s prescence. Simple.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, for the guy I guess them’s the breaks. But presumably you didn’t specify a dress code in advance.

You’re entitled to judge me because I won’t wear an expensive and functionally useless garment complete with small noose around my neck. That’s the way it goes.

84

I also think it makes you somewhat of a party pooper. The guy who refuses to wear a costume to a Halloween party because “it’s stupid” but goes anyway, the guy who goes to a religious wedding and is very obviously disdaining the religious aspects, the guy who goes to a funeral who obviously hated the deceased and is wearing a smirk, you don’t want to be that guy. No one wants to invite that guy to anything, because he can’t behave appropriately. Now, there are all sorts of reasons why someone may not be able to participate in an event yet ends up being there anyway, and most hosts are understanding about that. However, not participating because you think it’s somehow beneath you or because you think the venue or host’s requirements are silly is just rude. If you can’t get past the stupidity of the dress code, just don’t go.

85

[QUOTE=wolfman]
Great response. My objection is that Clothing elitism leads to a bunch of judgemental crap, and you prove it by resorting to a personal attack when I say I don’t conform. Thanks for the help.
[/QUOTE]

That was not a personal attack, so sorry if it came off that way. The person I described, sans glasses, was me so many years ago. You remind me very much of me in the past. Your posts resonate strongly.

The reality is that appearance matters, and it’s not a matter of elitism or wealth. Like it or not, and I suspect not, people judge you largely on how you look. And yes, you do it too, though you may deny it. If you dress like a slob, people will not automatically think “Wow, he must be a real free thinker!” They’re going to think you’re a slob. If you don’t care about that, then more power to you. But be prepared to be held back in a lot of areas of your life.

It took me a long time to get that.

86

That is what I am talking about. This assinine belief that we are supposed to judge people by their apperance and their cloths. And 99% of the people in here are rabidly defending that attitude. That’s the environment that cause some chick to starve herself for 3 months so she can “look nice for everybody” in her dress. The kind of environment that causes some little shit to mug somebody for their Air-Jordans cause of the shame of not fitting in. And the environment that causes some little girl to run home crying cause mommy and daddy can’t afford the $600 designer coat all her friends have.

You can’t have it both ways. If the clothes someone wears show the value of the person, then it shows the value of the person. And I damn well know I’m not going to change the world, but I sure as hell am not going to be part of the problem, perpetuating this superficial judgement crap and acting like it’s okay, and supposed to be that way.

87

[QUOTE=PaulParkhead]
Fair points, I guess, but what if, like me, one looks like an idiot in a suit? I look like one of those shortarsed Glasgow gangsters who makes his money running protection rackets and harassing the local bookmakers. Even if others may disagree, I feel like a turd, and that colours the whole event for me.
[/QUOTE]

Then find another suit. I’m sure that somewhere in this world, if you look hard enough, there is at least one suit that won’t make you look like a dork. When you find it you’ll feel like a million bucks (pounds?) when you wear it.

But what’s wrong with looking like a gangster? A lot of guys would love that look. And nobody will mess with you.

Seriously, you probably look better than you think. If that’s the case, then you just need to adjust your self-image a little.

88

[QUOTE=PaulParkhead]
Yeah, for the guy I guess them’s the breaks. But presumably you didn’t specify a dress code in advance.

You’re entitled to judge me because I won’t wear an expensive and functionally useless garment complete with small noose around my neck. That’s the way it goes.
[/QUOTE]

A lady shouldn’t have to specify a dress code for a first meeting. That goes without saying. If it is posted practice for stores and restaurants (No shirt, no shoes, no service!) than it goes without saying that it is an expected practice when first being introduced to someone. I was 27 at the time, the fellow was in his 30s. He knew social etiquette. He chose not to follow it, and greet me half naked. He was in atheletic shorts, the semi-baggy not very long, but not short kind, with no shoes. He looked like he’d just tumbled out of bed. He sent entirely the wrong message, “I can’t be bothered to comb my hair when meeting a lady” and “Look at me, I just got out of bed, want to join me there?” failing entirely to charm me. My friend did warn him that I was a “Lady”, “with good manners” too. I think perhaps he was either hoping I was a lady in word only, or he had decided to opt out of dating me because he couldn’t be bothered to make the effort to practice manners. His loss.

The same goes for once in a lifetime events like Weddings, Bar Mitzvahs, Bat Mitzvahs, and Quinceneras. The hosts of the party do get to determine the formality of the event, and therefore the manner of dress for the attendees. Of course exceptions can be made, and I am sure they are made, when the person is too poor to afford the formal wear, or cannot wear it for some reason. (Like, they have a cast on, and so cannot ruin their only suit pants to wear them over it.) Surely you concede, that the person in this recent topic, was showing respect when they wore the appropriate headgear? How is that different than what we are discussing here? I say it isn’t, really.

89

[QUOTE=PaulParkhead]
Fair points, I guess, but what if, like me, one looks like an idiot in a suit? I look like one of those shortarsed Glasgow gangsters who makes his money running protection rackets and harassing the local bookmakers. Even if others may disagree, I feel like a turd, and that colours the whole event for me.
[/quote]

I’m not picking on you but – there it is again! The fundamental selfishness of people who spurn basic social conventions. I feel, I want, I like. Me me me. You are putting your own comfort above that of your hosts, and it is the inherent and unavoidable egotism of it that is so unattractive.

90

[QUOTE=PaulParkhead]
You’re entitled to judge me because I won’t wear an expensive and functionally useless garment complete with small noose around my neck. That’s the way it goes.
[/QUOTE]

You’re ignoring the OP’s at-least-twice-repeated comment that she was going to a thrift store to purchase a suit at pretty much the same cost as any other garment there. Why do you and others insist on twisting this into a class war argument? I grew up “blue-collar poor” and yet we always had at least one “for good” outfit that would pass muster.

91

[QUOTE=Vihaga]
If I were as busy as it sounds like he is, I wouldn’t even want to go. It’s almost too bad he does; I bet he could ge a lot done. I second the “his dissertation is looming, he’s pretty much mentally ill” idea. I’m barely coming back to myself, and my defense was three weeks ago. I was horrible for months beforehand.
[/QUOTE]
That’s my thought as well – he’s the groom’s brother in law, if it were local I would say he’s obligated to go, but for a destination wedding not so much (exams don’t grade themselves, after all). Also, if you’re sans husband, then it’ll be easier for you to mingle with the future in-laws and ‘represent’ your side of the family.

92

[QUOTE=wolfman]
That is what I am talking about. This assinine belief that we are supposed to judge people by their apperance and their cloths. And 99% of the people in here are rabidly defending that attitude.
[/QUOTE]

You are mistaken in your belief. We are not advocating “ONLY THE BEST AND MOST EXPENSIVE DESIGNER CLOTHES” we are advocating putting on formal clothing for a formal event. Wal-Mart makes these! (For women at least, I’ve seen some "Mother of the Bride/Easter/Christmas party outfits there at times.) JC Penney’s sells men’s suits and women’s formal gowns. Those are acceptable, and they are not elitist at all. Such things are also available at secondhand/consignment stores, for much less than what you’d pay in a store. It isn’t about the cost of the clothing, it is about formality, a state of mind, and respect for not only the Hosts, but yourself. If you have never worn formal clothes, that fit well, and flattered you, then I can see why you don’t grasp this. Again, you can find formal clothing that are not designer, don’t cost an arm and a leg, but look good on you, easily. That is not asking too much.

93

[QUOTE=wolfman]
No it’s not about respect. It’s about showing off wealth. Respect is in deeds and actions, not appearances. It is a pathetic cheapening of to whole Idea of respect to associate it with something as worthless as person appearance.
[/QUOTE]

It is certainly not about showing off wealth. Dressing appropriately is about showing respect to your host and (in some cases) respecting the solemnity of the occasion. In the case of a wedding, in particular, it’s about respecting the wishes of the hosts to celebrate their solemn event (and a wedding is a really, really important event in people’s lives) the way they want to celebrate their event. In the case of other situations where formal dress might be called for it might be about showing respect to the family of the deceased or respect for the customs and traditions of a faith.

A nice set of formal clothes need not be expensive. If you shop around, it’s certainly possible to get a good suit for less than $100 (which, for the record, is about what my husband pays for a work-appropriate shirt and pants ensemble). Sure, one can spend more than a c-note on a nice suit, but it’s not required to get a suit that’s totally appropriate for formal occasions. And, let’s be blunt, every single adult should own at least one set of formal-wear-appropriate clothing - because there are situations when wearing anything else is straight-up inappropriate. Funerals, job interviews, etc. If a situation calls for formal wear, as long as you’re making a freaking effort, nobody who isn’t an asshole will think twice - but you have to make the effort. Showing up to an event that specified cocktail attire in jeans and a T-shirt tells everyone there (including your gracious hosts) that you didn’t think enough of them to even try to dress appropriately.

People who stick their nose in the air and object to donning formal wear because it’s about showing off wealth are engaging in self-centered sophistry. In my opinion, what they’re really saying is “I don’t wanna and you can’t make me and you’re mean to even try to make me do things I don’t wanna do”. Which, for the record, is what my four-year-old niece said when her mother made her ask her grandmother politely for a boiled egg two weeks ago, rather than throw common courtesy to the winds and demand personal favors in a rude tone of voice. One would hope an adult would have better manners.

It’s inconsiderate, tacky, selfish and flat-out rude to willfully ignore a dress code for an event because you don’t feel like complying. The dress code is part of the event - if you object to part of the event, then simply and politely decline the invitation and go on about your business. That’s not at all rude. The OP was about a situation where someone wanted to accept the invitation to a certain sort of event and then redefine the event to suit his own whims. It’s their party, they can have whatever party they want. For the record, it would be equally rude for someone to accept an invitation to a backyard BBQ that was specified as casual and show up in a tux and tails.*
*Less likely, but equally rude to ignore the sort of event being held. How weird would you feel being the only person in a tux? And how weird for the hosts who then have to worry “did we give Bob the wrong impression with our invitation?” and how they’re going to make a formal-wear-clad guest comfortable at a party replete with BBQ sauce, small children, grass, and all the other mess-inducing things one finds at a good BBQ.

94

[QUOTE=tdn]
Then find another suit. I’m sure that somewhere in this world, if you look hard enough, there is at least one suit that won’t make you look like a dork. When you find it you’ll feel like a million bucks (pounds?) when you wear it.

But what’s wrong with looking like a gangster? A lot of guys would love that look. And nobody will mess with you.

Seriously, you probably look better than you think. If that’s the case, then you just need to adjust your self-image a little.
[/QUOTE]

Oh, hey. I have no self-image problems. I’m not God’s Gift, but I’m happy with the way I am. And sure, if I looked hard enough I could probably find a suit that looks OK on me, by other peoples’ standards. In fact, my wife assures me that the one I already have looks OK.

That isn’t the point though. Me in a suit is still me feeling weird. I’m not comfortable wearing one. There are other garments I won’t wear because I feel weird, but no-one ever tries to insist (arbitrarily) that I should wear them.

95

You are rabidly advocating an environment in which people are to be judged on their clothes, and approprietly punished by a societal shunning.

96

[QUOTE=Ferret Herder]
You’re ignoring the OP’s at-least-twice-repeated comment that she was going to a thrift store to purchase a suit at pretty much the same cost as any other garment there. Why do you and others insist on twisting this into a class war argument? I grew up “blue-collar poor” and yet we always had at least one “for good” outfit that would pass muster.
[/QUOTE]

OK, forget the cost. That’s not my real point in any case.

97

[QUOTE=wolfman]
That is what I am talking about.
[/QUOTE]

Okay, then why are you talking about it in this thread, where we’re talking about buying a second hand suit at a thrift store as the ideal solution?

And what does this have to do with a thrift store suit?

I believe you’re the only one who’s brought up “value of the person”. The rest of us are talking about respecting a friend or family member enough to not ruin the visual look of their very expensive party.

Think of it this way: what if the bride was set on everyone in the place wearing blue? She wants a sea of blue to set off her gorgeous white dress in all the pictures. She had a blue bedroom as a child and wants to recapture that feeling of safety and security. Her double headed ice blue jelly dildo is her favorite thing in the world - whatever. For whatever unspecified reason, she’d really, really like everyone in blue, and so she indicates on the invitation that guest should please wear blue.

Do you agree that you’d be an ass to go to the store (thrift or otherwise) and walk by the blue section and pick out a red outfit?

'Cause that’s essentially what we’re talking about here. Clothing will have to be purchased, either $12 on a suit or $12 on a new ensemble. Walking by the suits to the “okay” clothes is picking out red instead of blue on purpose.

If you don’t see how that’s disrespectful to the bride, then I don’t know how else to get it across.

98

[QUOTE=Jodi]
I’m not picking on you but – there it is again! The fundamental selfishness of people who spurn basic social conventions. I feel, I want, I like. Me me me. You are putting your own comfort above that of your hosts, and it is the inherent and unavoidable egotism of it that is so unattractive.
[/QUOTE]

You think so? Maybe.

All I can say is that it simply would not occur to me to insist that anyone else wears anything for my personal pleasure. I don’t know if that makes me egotistic.

If you’re my friend, show up at my wedding! I want your company! And as long as what you’re wearing won’t get you arrested, I don’t give a shit.

99

I think all you slobs who have no self-respect and don’t care about the image your are projecting with your apparel should get your own thread. You are derailing the shit out of this one.

No offense, Paul. I’ve met you and you are cute as a button.

100

[QUOTE=wolfman]
You are rabidly advocating an environment in which people are to be judged on their clothes, and approprietly punished by a societal shunning.
[/QUOTE]

If I show up in a job interview wearing daisy dukes and a middrift top with the bottoms of my boobs sticking out, would you feel it reasonable to deny me a job because I’m not presenting myself well?

Why is the OP situation really any different?