[QUOTE=wolfman]
And there you go judging his value. What does combing hair have to do withself- respect. I’m guessing the guy respected him self pretty well, although I obviously don’t know.
And you judge by the fact he didn’t comb his hair, he is not capable of respecting someone? Where is the logic there, you just thought you were better than him cause he didn’t play the game according to your rules.
[/QUOTE]
I had just gotten out of an abusive marriage, (and am lucky I got out alive) and I got the same twinges I ignored with my first husband with him while conversing with him. He had low self esteem, and would not have respected me either. (And, possibly would want to use me as an emotional crutch, expecting me to carry his emotional baggage while always trying to “bring him up” yet while making no effort to do so for himself.) What cause do you have to question my judgement on such a matter? :dubious: It obviously wasn’t just the uncombed hair, or the lack of shirt, those were the two biggest heralds of what he thought of himself. There were other, subtler things too.
Question for the “pro-slob” crowd: A few years ago I had occasion to stand up in front of an orchestra for the benefit of an audience. Of course, I wore my tux. (Is that even a question?) The official dress code for the orchestra was “Try to wear black for the first performance. After that it really doesn’t matter.” That was not good enough for me. I wanted us to look as professional as possible, and I wanted us to be eye candy. I insisted that the men wear tuxes for every performance, and that the ladies wear evening gowns or something close to it.
Was I being unreasonable? Elitist? Trying to show that we were rolling in money?
I think I clarified (for me, at least, as a slob) that money wasn’t the issue. If you want to wear a tux, go for it. I’m sure you look great.
A performance is somewhat different, though. After all, you ask people to come and watch you put on a show. Inviting your friends to a wedding is not the same - the idea is that you want your friends around you on an important occasion.
[QUOTE=PaulParkhead]
Yeah? You’d show up in blue because the bride valued her wedding pics more than she valued your company?
Or you’d tell said bride to go fuck herself?
[/QUOTE]
Since I happen to look ravishing in blue (it’s true, I have obnoxiously blue eyes that look awesome when I wear blue) then it wouldn’t be a consideration for me one way or the other. Other things would be my deciding factors, like family obligations, cost, convenience, if I liked the bride and groom, and my own arbitrary and capricious whims. If, however, I decided to go, you betcher sweet bippy I’d be in blue.
If the bride wanted me in orange, I’d probably decline the invitation, unless she was a very good friend or family member.
And I think you’re being deliberately obtuse. For certain occasions it is just plain good manners to dress appropriately. It shows at a glance that you are taking the event as seriously as everyone else.
My BIL showed up at my son’s graduation dressed in blue jean shorts and a t-shirt. Everyone else was dressed nicely. It was noticed.
[QUOTE=PaulParkhead]
So I guess you’re right - if people care about that sort of thing, I suppose the polite thing is to respect that. I just can’t imagine caring what other people wear.
[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, and not unreasonable at all.
There’s another side to this that hasn’t been discussed much yet. Suppose that people could wear whatever they wanted to your wedding. Would you specify that on the invitations? If so, how so? When people get invitations, they usually want to know what to wear. They don’t want to be the only person to show up to a Halloween party wearing a costume, for instance. Or the only one to show up at a white tie event wearing jeans and a tee shirt. Maybe you wouldn’t care, but a lot of people would be really embarassed by that.
Framed in that light, can you see how a dress code is actually a polite thing?
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Since I happen to look ravishing in blue (it’s true, I have obnoxiously blue eyes that look awesome when I wear blue) then it wouldn’t be a consideration for me one way or the other. Other things would be my deciding factors, like family obligations, cost, convenience, if I liked the bride and groom, and my own arbitrary and capricious whims. If, however, I decided to go, you betcher sweet bippy I’d be in blue.
If the bride wanted me in orange, I’d probably decline the invitation, unless she was a very good friend or family member.
[/QUOTE]
I must say that I would decline any invitation from anyone who was that much of a control freak. It would clearly indicate that they didn’t respect me.
[QUOTE=PaulParkhead]
So I guess you’re right - if people care about that sort of thing, I suppose the polite thing is to respect that. I just can’t imagine caring what other people wear.
[/QUOTE]
Then we don’t disagree. Because the fact is a lot of people take away nonverbal information based on attire. I don’t know if that crosses the line to actually “caring;” I guess that would depend on how grievous and/or intentional the social faux pas was. But if you walk around in a a bowler, tutu, and swimfins, people are going to make some assumptions, and to argue that they shouldn’t strikes me as naive. They will.
[QUOTE=Zabali_Clawbane]
You do realize, that by non-conforming, you are conforming with the non-conformists, right? I, myself am a free thinker. I also, however, am a non-conformist who sometimes conforms. One day, perhaps you will reach such a milestone in your life, look back, and find that your opinion at that point in the future, isn’t so different from mine. Or, maybe you won’t.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, dear. I too am a conforming non-conformist. I fear this may mean that I am not the precious and unique snowflake which I thought myself to be.
Perhaps I should look into that sparkling on like a crazy diamond thing. Seems to be all the rage hereabouts.
[QUOTE=PaulParkhead]
I must say that I would decline any invitation from anyone who was that much of a control freak. It would clearly indicate that they didn’t respect me.
[/QUOTE]
Not going is always an option. Going and grieviously flouting the dress code should not be. I wouldn’t go to a nude wedding. I probably wouldn’t go to a wedding that required me, as a guest, to wear a costume. No one’s making you go; they just expect you to be reasonably appropriately dressed if you go.
[QUOTE=PaulParkhead]
I must say that I would decline any invitation from anyone who was that much of a control freak. It would clearly indicate that they didn’t respect me.
[/QUOTE]
Even if it was standard? Even if 98% of weddings had such specifications*? Do you get out much?
*Not blue or orange, but “beach casual”, “casual”,“cocktail” or “black tie” are almost always indicated nowadays - there’s a blank for it on the invitation templates, that’s how common it is.
[QUOTE=Jodi]
In what world are these the only two options?
I wore a grape-and-mauve cabbage-rose print tea-length bridesmaid’s dress with an enormous butt-bow. I looked like a small Victorian sofa in shoes. But I put it on and wore if with a smile because by God it was my friend’s wedding and that’s what she wanted her bridesmaids to wear.
It never occurred to me that she was devaluing me as her friend by not taking my own personal preferences into account on her wedding day. It also never occurred to me to refuse to attend if I couldn’t wear what I wanted, because I was more concerned with supporting nonconformity than with supporting my friend. (And by the way: conformity? Really? What is it, 1969? Stick it to The Man!) It was one freakin’ day out of my life.
[sub]Allthough don’t get me started on “Oh, you’ll wear it again!” Like hell I will.[/sub]
[/QUOTE]
I dunno. Married twice. Wedding #2, no bridesmaids, best man or whatever. Wedding #1, ex-wife told the bridesmaids to wear “a nice dress” - her exact words. I told my father and best man to please, for the love of all that’s holy, not to wear a fucking kilt. They did so anyway. I still love them both. My own trite prejudices were not particularly important - I shouldn’t have said anything at all about the kilts. If it made them happy, fine. Their presence was enough.
Really, I don’t take this POV because I want to be unconventional. Believe me, you’d walk past me in the street - it’s not like I have a scarlet mohawk or anything like that. I’m very conventional in most respects.
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Even if it was standard? Even if 98% of weddings had such specifications*? Do you get out much?
[/QUOTE]
That’s the thing…it’s not like wearing a suit to a wedding is some outlandish requirement that no one ever heard of before. It’s pretty much standard-issue, normal attire.
[QUOTE=tdn]
Fair enough, and not unreasonable at all.
There’s another side to this that hasn’t been discussed much yet. Suppose that people could wear whatever they wanted to your wedding. Would you specify that on the invitations? If so, how so? When people get invitations, they usually want to know what to wear. They don’t want to be the only person to show up to a Halloween party wearing a costume, for instance. Or the only one to show up at a white tie event wearing jeans and a tee shirt. Maybe you wouldn’t care, but a lot of people would be really embarassed by that.
Framed in that light, can you see how a dress code is actually a polite thing?
[/QUOTE]
Well, I have been the jeans guy at a relatively formal event. It was fine with me. Maybe someone else was concerned about it, but that’s not the question you were asking, was it?
Should I have gone to that event? No. Absolutely not. But I did learn some lessons. Just not the lesson that says “Suck it up, bitch!”
So yeah, if you tell everyone they’ll feel like a dick if they don’t dress up, then sure - anyone who doesn’t dress up will feel like a dick.
[QUOTE=Lightray]
Oh, dear. I too am a conforming non-conformist. I fear this may mean that I am not the precious and unique snowflake which I thought myself to be.
Perhaps I should look into that sparkling on like a crazy diamond thing. Seems to be all the rage hereabouts.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=PaulParkhead]
So yeah, if you tell everyone they’ll feel like a dick if they don’t dress up, then sure - anyone who doesn’t dress up will feel like a dick.
[/QUOTE]
You’re clearly not getting it (or twisting the question to support your point). It’s not about making people feel less comfortable, it’s about making them feel more comfortable. While you may not care about standing out as a slob (or inappropriate), many people do. Imposing a dress code is a polite way of telling people how they can feel more comfortable.
At any rate, we have this list: SUVs, modern art, obesity, Bush, Clinton, Iraq, tipping, declawing cats, pets as children…
I see that this discussion has evolved into a discussion about whether one should be expected to dress a certain way for weddings. But, really, what about whether WhyNot’s husband should care about what is important to WhyNot? 'Cause I don’t think he does.
People should judge people on their character.
People should not judge other people by their clothes.
People should not judge other people by their appearance.
Judging people by the clothes and appearance creates an environment of shitty eliteism, that causes social problems, and does nobody any good.
I, myself am a free thinker. I also, however, am a non-conformist who sometimes conforms. One day, perhaps you will reach such a milestone in your life, look back, and find that your opinion at that point in the future, isn’t so different from mine. Or, maybe you won’t.