(FYI: I am a man, not a woman.)
This isn’t a snarky thread at all; it’s a sincere question. Since there have been so many “I’m-old-and-still-a-virgin” threads of late, I figured this was a worthwhile topic: What is the typical dating/relationship advice given to ugly women, as opposed to the advice given to ugly men?
(For the sake of argument, let’s say that plastic surgery or cosmetics won’t make a difference in appearance. Saying “Get plastic surgery and make yourself beautiful!” is not only a dodging-the-question reply, but also doesn’t work for everyone.)
The usual advice given to unattractive men is,* “Develop confidence, have a sense of humor, be a good listener, and improve your income/talents/skills/hobbies/career, etc.” * But the difference seems to be that women are judged much more on the basis of their looks than men are (who are often judged by their character traits, personality, etc.)
In other words, an ugly woman with a good career, good income, confidence, humor, etc. still might not be considered desirable by men. So just what is the typical advice given to women in that sort of predicament?
I think it’s basically the same— if you don’t have the looks, make sure you’ve got the personality. And when at first you don’t succeed-- lower your standards!
Women do get a lot of advice on how to dress for our body type. “How to dress for your shape” articles are a women’s magazine mainstay. We also get a lot of advice on how to match things like haircuts or glasses to our face shapes. Some of this advice is helpful, a lot is dubious filler. But I do think it encourages women to be a little more aware of the things they can change.
In parts, it is about the same. When I was “ugly”, I definitely didn’t have as much self-esteem, which didn’t help (and it still doesn’t, my self-esteem is admittedly better but not always great).
There is a sexist bias in the “improve your skills/hobbies” part, in that it is not uncommon to hear mentioned how a woman is not very good looking, but is a good housekeeper/cook. Hence, the underlining part of “improve the skills and talents that (some) men would like.”
And like even sven said, women (and men) who are unattractive can have their looks improved with some basic cosmetic alterations.
But “fix yourself up” is exactly what ugly women are told. No, it doesn’t work for everyone, but that doesn’t stop people from saying it.
Hell, I’m not even ugly, and I often get unsolicited advice from others on how I can improve my appearance. Even though I’m fine with my appearance and not on the hunt for a man. But I think people wonder if perhaps my single-hood could be changed if I just fixed myself up. If I just let my hair grow out and wore lipstick and wore nicer shoes.
I don’t think ugly men get nearly as many pointers as ugly women do.
Another difference between men and women: ugly girls know from an early age that they will have to work harder–that they just can’t “show up”. Their mother and other “mother figures” let them know this right away.
I think this is where your frame of reference is off. A woman is generally always told she could be prettier–lose weight, change how she dresses, change her hair, change her make-up, etc. I honestly think that the vast majority of the time, the conversation never gets past this.
Aside from that, I think it’s also “be nicer”. If men react poorly to a reasonable looking woman, there’s a presumption that she must be a bitch–which may well be true, but there are other times that perfectly nice women are encouraged to, well, dial back their personality toward neutrality because there’s an idea that being too anything is bad for attracting men. It’s kind of the opposite of “be self-confident”.
Closely related, there’s also a strong sense that men like to be agreed with and made to feel brave/strong/competent/intelligent. Being “nice” also involves putting a lot of time and effort into making a man feel good about himself. I’m not sure that men are as explicitly encouraged to do that.
Conventional wisdom says there’s no such thing as a ugly woman, only a lazy one. There is almost always something a woman can do to make herself look better than her natural self. At least that’s what we’re told by the endless barrage of magazines, advertisements, and makeover shows. On one hand, this is a good message because it keeps women from giving up on themselves and resigning themselves to an ugly person identity. On the other hand, it makes self-acceptance more difficult, because you’re constantly being told if only you do X, Y, and Z, then you too will look and feel like a supermodel. And of course, looking and feeling like a supermodel is what we all should strive for, because that’s what is required to be loved and adored!
The truth is plenty of below-average women are “loved and adored”; same with below-average men. So the doom and gloom forecasting for people who are not conventionally attractive seems unwarranted to me. Ugly people might have to work harder to find mates and will pay the price for personality flaws that beautiful people don’t. Their standards will also have to be realistic. But ultimately, so what? Nature will find of way to propagate ugly people’s genes. It happens all the time.
While true, in the context of lonely virgins looking for relationships, it’s still going to be easier to get a partner if you’re putting some effort into it. Male or female.
There are a tiny minority of people of either sex who are incredibly good looking or really unfortunate looking. It must truly suck to be a naturally ugly person, but the truth is most of us are just average - some above average some below average.
In my opinion the big difference between women and men is that women have far more tools at their disposal to look better and the average woman actually uses far more of them too.
“Just use some cosmetics” is just the tip of the iceberg, although it’s certainly true that even light “doesn’t look like she’s wearing any makeup” cosmetics can really transform a woman’s look. There are a lot of other options, like dressing extremely well, buying clothes that flatter your body, getting a great hair cut, dying your hair to a more interesting color, wearing fashionable accessories.
So if you’re a lady walking around town looking for some advice to look less dumpy, odds are you’ve already done a lot of things to improve your look. If anything at all, people are going to be able to advise you to *marginally *improve your look. For a man in the same situation, there’s a high chance you’ve got a dopey haircut, dress like a little boy, don’t take care of your skin or your nails, etc.
If I met a young man who said he’s unattractive and has never succeeded with women, it’s not a bad bet to assume he’s tried nothing to improve his look, or only tried lifting weights.
If I could change one thing about myself it would be to have more character in the dating dept. I have met plenty of women over the years who I absolutely loved spending time with and were great women but they didn’t fit the profile of what I was willing to be seen socially with.
I doubt I am the only one like this male or female. I very much admire people who go for love and ignore how they think others might judge them. This is a big area of shame for me. I have always prided myself in having good character and standing up for what I believe in but the truth is I am a dismal failure in this one very important area.
I would like to see a " go for the love" movement. Encourage and reward those who are willing to step outside of what might be expected of them.
I disagree with this, in the specific case of spouses and - in some cases (depending on the level of commitment) - partners.
Attractiveness is something that spouses “bring to the table” in a relationship. Every spouse has a responsibility to keep up their end of the bargain in terms of remaining desireable to their spouses. (Within reason, of course.)
This is a lot broader than just women and just attractiveness. The exact same principle applies to male spouses and whatever it is that their wives find attractive or otherwise desirable about them.
This notion that you live for yourself alone and your own priorities and everyone else can just suck it up is self-centered, selfish, and ultimately counterproductive.
The advice I always got was “Be yourself! But dress differently. And don’t slouch. And don’t talk about that stuff. And clean yourself up. And don’t do that weird thing you do all the time. And best not mention that. But, you know, be yourself!”
When I was eight years old, my grandmother told me, “Your face will never be your fortune, so you’d better find something else to do.” I had to ask my mother what that first part meant, and she got mad and told me I was beautiful.
That memory has always stuck with me because of the gratitude I feel to both – my grandmother for being honest with me and my mother for being kind. But I believed my grandmother.
My best friend growing up (still my best friend) was and is gorgeous. I can remember at least two times when we were teenagers out in public (mall, restaurant), random women came up to us and gave me entirely unsolicited advice about how to make myself prettier, without saying a word to my friend. It bothered me a lot at the time and made me feel even less inclined to take care of my appearance. I was one of those girls who was too afraid to fix their hair or put on makeup because I thought people would laugh at me for making a useless effort when I was hopelessly ugly.
The thing is, my best friend was and is also very blunt with everyone and can be prickly with strangers, even when she’s asking for help. But people, men in particular, don’t seem to mind, which I have always attributed to her beauty. I can’t get away with acting like that – I’ve had to learn to be polite and warm and nonthreatening when I ask for help, because I don’t have the face to make people excuse my behavior.
(Now I think of the line in W.B Yeats’ poem “A Prayer for My Daughter” – Hearts are not had as a gift but hearts are earned / By those that are not entirely beautiful.)
And I’m glad I learned those lessons. I’m glad I learned not to assume people will instinctively like me because of my face, and learned instead how to be courteous to everyone – that’s a real skill. I’m especially glad to have learned that I am so much more than my appearance, and it doesn’t matter whether you find me attractive or unattractive – that’s your assessment of my shell, not myself.
I think “Just be yourself” is actually kind of lousy advice. “Just be true to yourself” is better. I think the just be yourself advice doesn’t take into consideration that we all must put on faces in order to succeed. Now that doesn’t mean we need to change ourselves completely. But we don’t act the same in a posh restaurant as we do at work as we do with our friends as we do with our family. We adjust and accommodate to each situation. But if we’re doing it right, we keep the core of what we are intact.
So I might be more dressed up and less inclined to scratch my butt at a fancy (or indeed) restaurant. But I am still who I am.
People think that asking this of them - to adjust to the circumstances - is some kind of anathema, like we are asking them to change too much or something. I say put your best face forwards and the rest of you will follow.
I’ve seen a lot of people who were unattractive at eight years old and quite attractive when they grew up, and the reverse as well.
And as for whether it’s a good idea to tell a kid something like that at that age - even if the prediction is valid - I think it depends on the kid and it may have worked out in your case, but in general it’s not a good idea. If you feel a kid’s face will never be her fortune you can focus on directing her to find something else to do without telling her that she’s ugly.
I got told just a little older - around 13 or so - that my nose was far too big for me to ever be pretty. In my case it was my own mother, so I def. believed her.
I don’t think it’s right or necessary for family to say these hurtful things. The kid will learn soon enough. Family’s job is to help heal the wounds, not inflict their own.
This is going to be crude, but I think most of the advice given to ugly women is to get good at blowjobs. Which is not exactly enlightened (in fact, it’s rather demeaning), but does get at one of the non-beauty things guys look for in a relationship.
That’s great and all but that really only applies to getting him to take his pants off. Which honestly isn’t always that difficult, unless he is gorgeous. Keeping him around for the long term is a different kettle of fish.
Yeah, I think kids will feel bad about themselves without any “help” from family. They’ll also get outside input from supposedly well-meaning adults who feel that a child might find it helpful to know they’re hideous (yes, I’m being incredibly sarcastic).
When I was little, my father who visited me less than once a year told me I was fat. He told me on the phone when I asked and I was 8 years old at the time; he hadn’t seen me for almost a year at that point, so probably had no idea anyway. That, combined with my mom who was obsessed with my weight, really didn’t help my self-esteem (if it had rolled off my back, I probably wouldn’t remember it now at 39).
When my daughter, who is 5!, says things to me like, “I think I’m fat,” or “I wish I were white,” I tell her that the way she looks is just right, just like the way her friends look is just right for them. It saddens me that the notion of “too fat” and “too brown” has entered into her vocabulary at all. (For what it’s worth, her skin is a beautiful shade of cream and brown that I only wish I had and she’s thin as a rail except her sweet cheeks, which still have the littlest bit of baby fat.)
What’s interesting is that my 9 year old son has never ever expressed concern with how he looks - he’s only told me that he’s well-done and I’m rare because his skin is this amazing deep chocolate bronze color and mine is crazy pink. It’s simply not something that enters into his friends’ discussions, though even at 5 years old, it somehow invades my daughter’s. Regardless, me telling either of them “for their own good” that their looks were somehow lacking would be assholish and would serve absolutely no purpose other than to give them a headstart on feeling bad about themselves.
