Advice for unattractive women vs. advice for unattractive men

[gallows_fodder]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

I’m not sure I agree with your grandmother.

I’ve seen a lot of people who were unattractive at eight years old and quite attractive when they grew up, and the reverse as well.

And as for whether it’s a good idea to tell a kid something like that at that age - even if the prediction is valid - I think it depends on the kid and it may have worked out in your case, but in general it’s not a good idea. If you feel a kid’s face will never be her fortune you can focus on directing her to find something else to do without telling her that she’s ugly.

Yeah, I do agree with you. It hurt for a long time, just as it hurt when my mother told me I was very pretty and my father said, “Let’s not exaggerate,” and all the other stupid things people have said to me when I was younger. Even now, I think people are exaggerating or feeding me BS when they compliment my looks because the negative comments are ingrained in me.

Really, there’s no reason the lessons I’ve learned have to be learned the hard way, or that you can’t teach your beautiful kids the same ones.

[Thudlow_Boink]

@Anaamika

I think “Just be yourself” is actually kind of lousy advice. “Just be true to yourself” is better.

I like the way you put this.

[Sailboat]

@Anaamika

I got told just a little older - around 13 or so - that my nose was far too big for me to ever be pretty. In my case it was my own mother, so I def. believed her.

Pretty or not, big/prominent noses on women are…well, let’s just say I’m a fan (and not in a weird way).

[pool]

I’m a guy but I see a lot of younger guys who made the same mistakes as me in youth who would prob do well with the ladies through just some minor things. Your hair is long but it’s unkempt and greasy so cut it short and use shampoo, your facial hair is patchy and pathetic so shave it, brush your teeth and use some mouthwash, find some clothes that don’t look like they came off a homeless guy.

In our society women have it a lot worse as far as the looks thing goes, they are expected to adhere to higher, unrealistic standards, they’re expected to be the whole package, men meanwhile are held to much more realistic, or even lesser standards in the looks department.

[MandaJo]

@yellowjacketcoder

This is going to be crude, but I think most of the advice given to ugly women is to get good at blowjobs. Which is not exactly enlightened (in fact, it’s rather demeaning), but does get at one of the non-beauty things guys look for in a relationship.

No. No one tells you this. Who would tell you this? Your mom? Your BFF? Your dude friends? If they are dude-friends that aren’t romantically interested in you, they probably keep you in kind of an asexual/sisterly slot in their heads. They aren’t going to tell you about how you need to give better head.

And how does giving good blowjobs help you be more attractive to men? Unless they are hearing about your skills through gossip, by the time you can show then your mad fellatio skillz, you’ve pretty much gotten through the initial “getting men to notice me” hurdle anyway. And if your blowjob skills are well known through the grapevine, you don’t have this problem–obviously, other men have noticed you. You may or may not have some other problems getting into a LTR, depending on your social circle’s norm.

Now, there are a lot of women who try to attract men more successfully by emphasizing their sexual prowess and availability, which can include giving the impression they give good blowjobs. Even then, I don’t think this is advice one often actually gets from friends/peers/society beyond a vague “dress sexier”–most girls figure it out on their own.

[QuickSilver]

@pool

I’m a guy but I see a lot of younger guys who made the same mistakes as me in youth who would prob do well with the ladies through just some minor things. Your hair is long but it’s unkempt and greasy so cut it short and use shampoo, your facial hair is patchy and pathetic so shave it, brush your teeth and use some mouthwash, find some clothes that don’t look like they came off a homeless guy.

Oh sure. So I’m just supposed to suddenly look like I came off the casting call for Magic Mike just to get a little attention from a woman? Why can’t she just see me for the really nice guy that I already am… a guy who enjoys pizza, a lot, and sweatpants, and video games in my mom’s basement.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@MandaJo

And how does giving good blowjobs help you be more attractive to men?

This is not to endorse the claim being made.

But if it has any truth to it, it would be about keeping a partner in the face of more attractive options, rather than about attracting one to begin with. In which case, the argument in your post would not apply.

[MandaJo]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

This is not to endorse the claim being made.

But if it has any truth to it, it would be about keeping a partner in the face of more attractive options, rather than about attracting one to begin with. In which case, the argument in your post would not apply.

Right, but the OP was about "What advice are women who are romantically unsuccessful given? What do people tell them that is the equivalent of “Develop confidence, have a sense of humor, be a good listener, and improve your income/talents/skills/hobbies/career, etc.” Those are “attract women” things, not “keep women” things, I think.

[MandaJo]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

I disagree with this, in the specific case of spouses and - in some cases (depending on the level of commitment) - partners.

Attractiveness is something that spouses “bring to the table” in a relationship. Every spouse has a responsibility to keep up their end of the bargain in terms of remaining desireable to their spouses. (Within reason, of course.)

This is a lot broader than just women and just attractiveness. The exact same principle applies to male spouses and whatever it is that their wives find attractive or otherwise desirable about them.

This notion that you live for yourself alone and your own priorities and everyone else can just suck it up is self-centered, selfish, and ultimately counterproductive.

I don’t think the intent of the quote. I think the quote is more about how a lot of little girls are raised on the idea that being unattractive is a moral failing. The weirdly unattractive guy at work is “awkward” or “lacks social skills” The weirdly unattractive girl “doesn’t take care of herself”, “has no self-respect, it’s sad, really”, and “just has no sense of pride”.

[monstro]

@MandaJo

I don’t think the intent of the quote. I think the quote is more about how a lot of little girls are raised on the idea that being unattractive is a moral failing. The weirdly unattractive guy at work is “awkward” or “lacks social skills” The weirdly unattractive girl “doesn’t take care of herself”, “has no self-respect, it’s sad, really”, and “just has no sense of pride”.

One of the fancy ladies I work with told me one day that she judges women more harshly than men with regard to physical appearance because “women should know better”.

In her mind, woman who doesn’t look “nice” should be ashamed of herself.

A man who doesn’t look “nice” is just clueless, poor thing.

[stillownedbysetters]

My poor mother tried everything she could to turn her gangly athletic sow’s ear daughter into the proverbial silk purse debutante - charm school (Gawd, that sounds so antequated now), modeling lessons, ballet, you name it. I’m plain, not ugly, but if I don’t make an effort, it really shows. I’m impeccable about my grooming, smile a lot, and have learned to project a non-threatening self-confidence. What I lack in pulchritude, I’ve made up for in likeability. So I guess that’s the counterpart of the old advice to cultivate a fun personality. I’ve always had a good figure, nice legs, and have kept fit, which certainly hasn’t hurt, either.

Really, on reflection, the advice to always appear confident and to smile a lot was the most valuable. A smile beautifies just about any face - homely or gorgeous.

[racepug]

@overlyverbose

Yeah, I think kids will feel bad about themselves without any “help” from family. They’ll also get outside input from supposedly well-meaning adults who feel that a child might find it helpful to know they’re hideous (yes, I’m being incredibly sarcastic).

When I was little, my father who visited me less than once a year told me I was fat. He told me on the phone when I asked and I was 8 years old at the time; he hadn’t seen me for almost a year at that point, so probably had no idea anyway. That, combined with my mom who was obsessed with my weight, really didn’t help my self-esteem (if it had rolled off my back, I probably wouldn’t remember it now at 39).

When my daughter, who is 5!, says things to me like, “I think I’m fat,” or “I wish I were white,” I tell her that the way she looks is just right, just like the way her friends look is just right for them. It saddens me that the notion of “too fat” and “too brown” has entered into her vocabulary at all. (For what it’s worth, her skin is a beautiful shade of cream and brown that I only wish I had and she’s thin as a rail except her sweet cheeks, which still have the littlest bit of baby fat.)

What’s interesting is that my 9 year old son has never ever expressed concern with how he looks - he’s only told me that he’s well-done and I’m rare because his skin is this amazing deep chocolate bronze color and mine is crazy pink. It’s simply not something that enters into his friends’ discussions, though even at 5 years old, it somehow invades my daughter’s. Regardless, me telling either of them “for their own good” that their looks were somehow lacking would be assholish and would serve absolutely no purpose other than to give them a headstart on feeling bad about themselves.

True (God knows it happened to ME more than once!). But there’s no sense in family selling you a"Bill of Goods" that nobody else in the world will, either. While I agree that there’s no reason for family members to be cruel (enough other people in the world can do THAT) I also don’t think that family members should get people’s hopes up, either. That’s why when it comes to comments about people I tend to dismiss those made by family members. At least the ones made in public. Maybe the kind of comments one would hear if one were a fly on the wall during a private conversation have merit. But not other ones, in my view.

[Anaamika]

@QuickSilver

Oh sure. So I’m just supposed to suddenly look like I came off the casting call for Magic Mike just to get a little attention from a woman? Why can’t she just see me for the really nice guy that I already am… a guy who enjoys pizza, a lot, and sweatpants, and video games in my mom’s basement.

See, the thing is, I like pizza. A lot. And I like video games. I don’t wear sweatpants, but I don’t care if YOU do. Mom’s basement is right out, though.

You just have to show that you can ALSO do other things!
In answer to the others, I have also heard derogatory comments from women about women about how frumpy, etc., they are, and how they could do better if they just tried. Besides the fact that I don’t really like women backtalking about women at all (don’t we get enough of it from our mothers, our sisters, and men? Can’t we be respectful of our peers at least?), it is a case of “Women should know better.”

Plus women will often look at a man and see potential. And the thing is men, do allow themselves to be changed, and it’s not always a horrible thing. The man that does only eat pizza and wear sweatpants can be persuaded to clean up a bit.

But people who deride that sort of change don’t realize men change women, too. There is a part of change that comes from just being together and having your mind expanded to new things. There is another part that comes from one trying to change the other against their will. This part is no good.

That being said, being fashionable or pretty or whatever is definitely a moving target. In the other thread about hair I commented about curly hair not being in when I was a child. Then it was in, then it wasn’t.
Well. I have curly hair. This ain’t changing! I’m not straightening it! So I can’t really ever keep up with the trends. And if the trend for beauty is to be tiny and delicate with a button nose, well, I’ll be over here with the broad-shouldered tall girls, curling my hair around my finger.

Being large in impoverished countries is generally a compliment, although even this is changing as they conform to Western standards. In India they say you’re looking “healthy” and it means you have enough to eat, you are living well, etc. But being large - even pleasantly plump - in Western countries is thought to be kind of gross, and all sorts of implications are made about your moral character (you are lazy, dumb, and stupid).

Sailboat, thank you for the kind words. I shudder to think how you could be into big noses in a weird way…! But now I consider my (largeish) nose to be part of my Punjabi heritage and it is part of who I am.

[racepug]

@stillownedbysetters

My poor mother tried everything she could to turn her gangly athletic sow’s ear daughter into the proverbial silk purse debutante - charm school (Gawd, that sounds so antequated now), modeling lessons, ballet, you name it. I’m plain, not ugly, but if I don’t make an effort, it really shows. I’m impeccable about my grooming, smile a lot, and have learned to project a non-threatening self-confidence. What I lack in pulchritude, I’ve made up for in likeability. So I guess that’s the counterpart of the old advice to cultivate a fun personality. I’ve always had a good figure, nice legs, and have kept fit, which certainly hasn’t hurt, either.

Really, on reflection, the advice to always appear confident and to smile a lot was the most valuable. A smile beautifies just about any face - homely or gorgeous.

That’s one thing I’ve finally figured out: that one must have something going on in order to be attractive to other members of society. Looks, wealth, personality, confidence, intelligence, sense of humor…something. I feel bad for those people who lack ALL of those things. Must make it hard to get along in the world.

[QuickSilver]

@stillownedbysetters

Really, on reflection, the advice to always appear confident and to smile a lot was the most valuable. A smile beautifies just about any face - homely or gorgeous.

It helps if you have all your front teeth.

[QuickSilver]

@Anaamika

You just have to show that you can ALSO do other things!

But my mom said I should NEVER show house guests those things!

[stillownedbysetters]

@QuickSilver

It helps if you have all your front teeth.

Not in southern Indianer…having all your teeth is considered uppity. lol

[Small_Hen]

You could walk around playing Jimmy Soul at top volume.

I think “Be yourself” is fairly horrible advice, topped only by catastrophic “You don’t have to try” (a song which has me reaching for the skip button like it’s a pavlovian reflex). Both of those lovely little proverbs, I feel, cater to the social anxiety which seems to get more and more ubiquitous in our culture all the time. A person who is not trying cannot fail. A person who will only “be themselves” has no reason to learn from their mistakes, or try to change anything. When there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to fear.

It should be noted, I say this as a bit of an outsider looking in. I’m fast approaching 30, in decent shape, have a good job, own my own home, and have never been in a relationship longer than 3 months. That 3 month romance was 10 years ago, and I spent the entire time feeling like a cat trying to escape being shoved into a bathtub. I have hated every romantic and or shared sexual experience of my life. I don’t doubt that social anxiety plays a part, but mainly I simply feel like I don’t understand romance on a fundamental level.

At any rate, women need to “sell” themselves in much the same way men do. A man with a limited bank account and subpar looks is advised to be funny, good at coming up with date ideas, helpful, interesting, and polite. Why should it be any different for a woman? A woman who can’t bring looks to the table can bring wit, adventure, intelligence, money, and let’s not forget flattery. People like to be around people who make them feel good. A big part of being charming is paying attention to what makes people around you smile.

[LinusK]

Well, the question is what advice to give a woman who is unattractive, but can’t do anything about it. I’m not sure I agree with the premise (most people can do something to make themselves more attractive), but it’s your (Velocity’s) thread, so I’ll go with it.

The first question I’d ask is: What do you want a man for?

There could be any number of answers, so I’ll pick one, and go with it: “I want a man to love and cherish me, and to be a good father to our children.”

In that case, I’d probably advise her to “act more like a man”: locate one or more prospects and actively pursue them. Some possible prospects could include “geeks”: younger men who have likely had little success with women, have low self-esteem (at least when it comes to women) and are not assertive. (Don’t wait for them to ask you out, because they won’t. Ask them.) Genuinely, truly religious men: they’re likely to have a different value system, compared to other men. They’re more interested in finding a good wife and mother, and relatively less obsessed with looks.

As far as how to approach them: with geeks, one good approach would be to show interest in what interests them. Ask questions, and listen. (If it bores the fuck out of you, you should probably move on.) If there’s a way for you to participate in his interests, participate. When the time comes, ask him out. Or kiss him. (If you want. If you don’t want, he’s not the right guy. Move on.)

If he’s a religious guy, you’ll have to be the same or similar religion. You’ll have to go to the same church. Do church things with him (whatever they are). If he’s still the guy you want, after spending time with him, ask him out. Do not, however, initiate physical intimacy. Be willing to be vulnerable. Be willing to use his shoulder, and if he lends it, show appreciation. Talk about your problems, and if he listens, thank him for listening. Tell him you feel better just for having someone to talk to. If fixes your problems, or tries to fix them, thank him for that. If or when you want him to kiss you, say “I would really like it if you kissed me right now.”

Anyway, the point is, if you’re a woman, and you’re not attractive, you can’t just wait around for the right guy to show up. You have to figure out what you want, and actively pursue it.

[zweisamkeit]

@gallows_fodder

I was one of those girls who was too afraid to fix their hair or put on makeup because I thought people would laugh at me for making a useless effort when I was hopelessly ugly.

That was exactly, exactly me, although it spread beyond appearance things because I had severe depression and deep self-loathing. Anyone who tried to reassure me were obviously just trying to make me feel better so I’d hate myself for “making” someone feel the need to lie (I’m a LOT better now, after a lot of mental work on my part, thankfully).

In general, I agree that for women, it’s always assumed that there’s something you could be doing better, looks-wise – start wearing makeup, change how you apply your makeup, cut your hair, grow your hair out, spend 1-2 hours every fucking morning forcing your hair into what it’s not (curly girls, get out that flat-iron! Straight hair just NEEDS those “effortless” beachy waves that actually take a lot of time/practice to get the hang of), lose weight you heifer, obsess over body features that are literally unchangeable without unbelievable amounts of plastic surgery (your wrists are too fat, your shoulders are too broad you linebacker, your shoe size is wayyyy too big, you don’t have a thigh gap,* your legs are stumpy, you have saddlebags, your boobs aren’t the “right” shape or perkiness level), and so on.

The end message is that it’s our own fault if we/others don’t like how we look.

• which is dependent on your skeletal structure, not weight.