against dualism

You’re confusing absolute objectivism and the ability to be positive about the accuracy of the translation.

We know absolute objectivism collapses the ability for data to transfer. It’s like setting a camera to take a picture of yourself when you become a rock, and then observing the picture to determine what it’s like to be a rock. Unless you are fully a rock, you cannot know what it is to be that rock at that specific point; as there is NO mechanism which allows that memory to transfer.
For all you know, you could be that rock right now; however, since you won’t be able to translate this knowledge, it effectively becomes severed from your perception of being - Eris is not the rock. Think of MPD, multiple personality disoder here.

This isn’t a matter of figuring out how to become the rock. We need to figure out how to communicate with the rock, so that it can help us virtualize its state of being; and map more of this area.

The best we can hope for is something which records emotional states, thoughts, interactions (topography), and feeds us back our percentage of conforming to it. We will ALWAYS not remember what happenned when the conformity is 100%.

If we did, we wouldn’t be here, none of this would exist Eris.

-Justhink

I don’t think this is a hope in a universal sense. None of this would make sense if such a mechanism couldn’t be built.

This is where you’re falling into the monist trap allowed by the necessity of your ability to be a recursive being.

You’re the person who looks at the picture when the machine tells you that conformity was 100% and attempting to discern the rock by looking at the picture and stating “This was what the rock was doing when I was the rock.” And attemping to formulate more truths about the rock from this. This is the monist delusion.

The mechanism you used to turn yourself into the rock didn’t DO anything. You’re pushing the button to configure your conditions; and when you hit 100% on the conditions you fail to EXPERIENCE that state, and instead recieve the language translation OUTPUT; the coding which dinged 100% on the matching scale.

You did not become the rock; the picture is just of the rock, not ‘you as the rock’. You’re missing the entire point of how you not being the rock is the mechanism necessary to prove the translation accuracy Eris; you’re too busy attempting to reconcile your ego into the rock to look at the data.

-Justhink

Without the ability to have this monist delusion, you can’t exist eris. You have the ability to determine that this is meaningless, however, it is this state which gives you that ability.
Rationality is determined by looking at the data when it dings 100% instead of looking at the picture of the rock and attempting to reconcile your ego with it.

-Justhink

I’ll have to sit on this some more, Ramanujan, because it seems to me you’re using the word contradiction like I do, except for the fact that it is meaningless as you describe it, in which case I am just as confused as when I started.

Justhink, that is one of the best analogies I’ve heard in a while. But you don’t seem to be ruining my point, which is ultimately that the proposition “physicalism is the case” cannot be decided because one would need a perfectly self-referential map at one point. Now, I think physicalism is a fine hypothesis, it seems economic in most cases, but I think dualism is a good model, too, when doing just about everything else (as the OP noted, it is almost assumed in our language already).

Of course. This is a picture of one kind of knowledge acquisition. But why are we to say (not assume, but say with justified conviction) that the picture represents a state of affairs? That is, what counts for the accuracy of a picture while we are virtualizing our experience?

How are you seperating dualism and physicalism Eris?
Please be specific. Do you disagree with both dualism and physicalism? I’m a bit lost here now.

Being lost, I have no trouble still addressing the issue though =):

I wanted to note, similar to what I believe Ramanujan is stating as well; that we can determine dualism through falsification and use this falsification as positivism in the sense that ‘it coudn’t be any other way’. In that sense we can state meaning with logic.

You can’t exist if this can happen.
Let’s test this…
Nope that didn’t happen…
That is why you exist.

In this case, dualism is being posited. The falsification is setting up a system which records topography and changes your state accordingly with the input you provide. A time-delay brings you back and you observe the percentage of your conformity with the pre-recorded topographical state. When you finally hit 100%, the only thing that matters is your INPUT; which now becomes the OUTPUT you were seeking all along in a translative sense.

Your physical state will not change at 100%. When you hit a monism, reality DOES NOT COLLAPSE!

This posits dualism as necessary and beyond the capacity of all free-will to affect. I find it easier to simply look at all of this in a recursive sense and understand that reality has not collapsed at all points, making this act of will impossible no matter how hard anybody tries. There is something independant of us which exists and is not ‘nothing at all’.

I believe this property is a phenomenal barrier which translates holographically in every instance; whether the state has been transcended or not. The same process occurs at the critical mass of euclidean geometry as it does in the system which ‘monates’ euclidean geometry. This barrier will always be imposed regardless of the number of transcendences which occur. This is precisely because moving through that barrier collapses all logic, as logic postulates the collapse of self-recursive awareness when this barrier is actually embodied - a universal collapse of dualism; the proof of irrationality. I believe that logic has nestled itself into an excellent position of determining absolute existential barrier to both it’s own possibility and it’s own purpose as being rendered through the same falsifiable system. That is where I believe your recursion singularity is being observed; that proof you want.

The picture is being anthropromorphised by our recursion; photography in general being an abstraction of the natural process which anthropromorphises our vision BACK TO US.
Nature in this sense is validating us, when we move in the direction of abstracting our own sensory organs outside of ourselves, into it. It holds this stuff for us, showing that this stuff exists within the framework and is a matter of uncovering it.

The last question.

You can always postulate another layer of abstraction; there may well be another type of ‘photography’ which collapses this entire system and renders visuals of what this process sticks on 100%.
I believe that evidence of critical mass on both ends is the evidence you are looking for with regards to the security that the picture has been representing the percentages properly.

Again, I don’t know WHY it must be this way!
Why we have recursion and incompleteness, motion and difference. However, they all explain themselves consistently IMO. The opposite being complete non-existence.

-Justhink

Also, the photograph is for mere vanity purposes, one aspect of recording the process. Like one takes a picture f themselves at a famous monument to use as some sort of benchmark.

You take a picture of yourself as a rock (absent 100% you will actually REMEMBER yourself in that state, it will mean something to you!!). You will remember being that rock.

-Justhink

I case the anology hasn’t struck you yet; the rock symbolizes any topography. Let’s move it to YOU. I want to become Eris, so I fill your body with my memories and experiences. Well, as the topography begins matching closer to your memories and experiences, I know more of what it’s like to be Eris; but at 100% I only recieve the absolute language translation as works for me precisely to comprehend.

I may have to do skydiving to achieve the same emotion you get when you wake up on some mornings. Having remembered that emotion, I can now attempt to organize my life to experience that emotion waking up some mornings… flitering more of Eris into myself; my own memory. I can inevitably simulate all of the internal at 100% as integrated into my own memory; however if i place all of that in your body, it becomes a monism and no data is transferred. This is a property both universal and recursively oriented; as universal is postulated as a fundamental recursion through logic; a redundancy of form with a marked topographical difference with which to allow being; primarily the perception of it, the interaction of it.

-Justhink

Oh, I got the analogy. That’s why I like it so much.

Also, it isn’t that I disagree with both of them, it is that I agree with both of them in as much as I have no method of actually deciding between them (as of yet). They both make claims about consciousness, and yet neither explain it. This makes it a moot point.

Ramanujan

I can accept that (I don’t agree with it, but I can accept it). Now, when we think something all the way through, what happens?

in this case, you can draw a regular heptagon with nothing but a compass and a straightedge.

It is the action itself that is impossible. Could I draw a cartoon of a guy making a regular heptagon with only a compass and a straightedge?

you could try, but he wouldn’t be doing it.

Oh, so you want to know where consciousness comes from.
Try not to confuse this with the necessaryness of consciousness being able to exist in order for anything to exist. I don’t know why there is incompleteness! Please don’t ask me that question!
In regards to purpose, I believe that it framed as ‘validating consent’. This touches right on the language issue, and that we observe it being closed in upon; and then fundamentally isolating this process in and of itself in order to not have the possibility of non-consent. Talking about self-recursives and recursives that haven’t been abstracted as self-recursives yet are slightly different (note: rock vs. you).

In the most general sense, consciousness is the desire for homeostasis; the desire to replicate a memory; to control consent. (The issue on both a theoretical and social end, is that people are not mapping with accordence to the belief that all entities must be translated in order to have this state of consent redemption - they get caught in ‘meaningless’ loops of meaning which validates itself because the pressure is not there to alert them that something el;se exists outside of their range of mapping things like ‘joy’ or consent validation; to this degree they are operating autonomously; or are non-self-recursive from perspective of greater abstraction. Instead of abusing this for ones own benefit (which is not particulary understood as abuse from the object in question); the goal is to translate the data instead of ignore the existence of the data in regards to consent.)

Anyhow, consciousness in the most general sense is memory of lack of consent and the ability to virtualize situational occurence of consent; the belief that you have a purpose and a will which is meaningful to that degree. That you can choose, or rather, conform reality towards your consent much like your consent was violated; as you know from your own perception of will and existence.

This is where the emergence of cause and effect and determinsm fundamentally comes from. Knowledge of methodology which bypasses consent, which can be excersized to achieve that result for your own consent.

To the degree that the objects acted upon are ignored in the sense of having the capability of consent (this is primarily laziness or lack of belief in self or lack of knowledge, understanding, experience); the entire map with regards to consent is being ignored and the person is in effect surrenduring their will, or perception of their will, their consent to believe they have the capacity to consent or to violate consent.

I don’t see how rationality can stand if we don’t realize that anthropromorphization is necessary to project on all existents - seeking the translation.

The problem is the monism trap. You may not like me because i need to skydive in order to feel your waking up emotion (You’re caught with looking at the picture instead of the output, you don’t have the desire to validate consent to that degree; to existentially validate ones state). Conversely, you skydiving may never achieve any of the emotions I recieve when waking up; and it seems superfluous to you to be ‘programmed’ to relate the two so that you can understand what it is to be me. You may ‘hate’ me for being a liar (the emotion isn’t translating) and for suggesting that you practice it until you get it (attempting to control you and violate your consent by changing your perception of what it is you consist of).

Until we translate physical law anthropromorphically, the abstraction is embedded into the object in question; rather then being a recursive on our plane. Part of the trouble is snapping out of monism and recignizing that these issues of lack of communication are fundamentally your burden; as the standardization for rationality is anthroprmorphized as being necessary for all beings. The rock rolling down the hill may not know you’re there, or if it does, it may not want to kill you, it may want to control life and death. the only means to achieve this is to map consent for all objects and not just a few; enough to render the pressure to continue the work unecessary.

I think people in general get bogged down by time and the impermeabiulity of it all (I’m talking to a rock for 30 years and the thing doesn’t respond, you wasted my time and shattered my hopes, you violated my consent; thanks alot).

I understand that mistakes will be made with regards to something people understand is fundamentally possible (read: flight. Still considered a mistake to the degree that we can’t will our bodies to flap their arms and fly; this is just a mapping issue, something is not aware that it’s blocking our consent here!)

When people apply themselves though, they recieve decrptions that collapse systems and allow more efficiency both in the energy cycled through time and the extension of time itself.
I don’t see a reason why we can’t do this in this existence right here.

To the degree that we allocate resources to send a single person because we haven’t abstracted unillateral energy consent for a process yet; we are trusting them to not abuse that which we all know they can abuse; for the goal is the same - unillateral consent. the moment someone becomes frieghtened about time and death and the idea that they have the opportunity to express this right now: THEM, right now; instead of doing more work. When they quit, the project stops, the mapping stops, and their possibility for progression with regards to consent stops.

-Justhink

In short, I don’t know why incompleteness exists.
However, it will always exist. That is the first position necessary to adopt for rationality. You will never have the ability to destroy it - there are two seperate things; not necessarily dualism, just two memory structures seperated by motion.

What is here though is desire and consent. In order to fulfill desire one must ensure that consent in mapped with the precision of knowing that it is not being virtualized; or else your own consent is being virtualized - and you are not recursive in the sense that you believe yourself to be, and therefor have no reason to choose to DO anything from the reference: your will.
You disprove your behavior logically to this degree.

What I see that we have before us is validating consent.
The issue with new abstractions is that the explorers will abuse their spacial selection and consider it priviledge; they’ll be deluded into monism and accept their new power as consent on the entities which conform to their lack of pressure to believe that it’s all being virtualized and delusional to that degree.

To circumvent this issue, we have a unillateral method called science, which allows even a ‘moron’ of our species to access the same route unillaterally. We abstract things so that there is no bias; and this we call universal law. Telling someone to talk to a rock for 30 years while secretly charging others to observe the moron, making a profit, and then if they succeed! pushing the person who made the translation so all could use it out of the way (treating them fundamentally like the rock as before - one person changes things (the translator), another person doesn’t (the theif, the monist)). The translation is then corrupted by this delusion to create a commodity so as to maintain the abuse of consent, rather than using the mechanism necessary to abstract the translation to grant unillateral usage. The second being is entirely superfluous to rationality, as they have the general monism pattern corrupting their logic. God in the Bible is a perfect example of the worst in a being to this degree.

-Justhink

I don’t mind being asked, but I want to differentiate a boundary that I do not know from something which can be explained once it is here.

Another small point:

Jumping ahead here, I think we can intuit (at a bare minimum) that each layer of recursion is exponential; and requires each word to be recursed upon itself holoraphically so as to extend itself as logically valid in some means.

By makiing this statement in the quote, I’m not arguing against dualism here; I’m just not taking the time to attach motion or polatrity (this sense of organization to it).

Those are fundamentally higher order abstractions (IMO), and as such require much more clarification and complexity to integrate into the OP.

It’s really about the general sense of:

If two things were not fundamentally seperated in some way (be it the same substance in different proportions seperated by space or time or what-have-you; that we wouldn’t be able to type this thread.

If you discard that, then you discard the purpose for writing the OP with regards to what is considered some sense of ‘logic’.

Is that clear? It seems to me that this is the most fundamental argument for dualism (two-ism at a minimum; never reaching 'one-ism). I’m not understanding where the OP is arguing against this concept, or that the purpose of writing the OP is not being attached to the concept.

What allowed you to write the OP if dualism doesn’t exist, but rather monism?

Even if your two seperate entities are expressed as irrationals at the core, and ‘whole numbers’ don’t achieve some form of completeness (in order for me to state: 2 or above, but never one or zero or one and zero); how is the fundamental perception of discernment discarded without collapsing the point of the OP?

What exactly IS the OP arguing? Is my confusion here coming across?

-Justhink

Justhink: What I am doing here, debating dualism, is fundamentally no different than what a calculator does when it computes a sum, for instance. Given a certain algorithm for adding numbers, and given an input of “2+3”, it can spit out “5”, using only physical elements. The reason, of course, is the givens – it “knows” how to add numbers, because of the algorithm, but it doesn’t “know” how to evaluate the algorithm – and if it did, it would be using another algorithm, but it wouldn’t know how to evaluate that algorithm, ad infinitum (the recursiveness you were talking about). So without any givens, you’re right, it’s impossible for this calculator to know anything for certain – BUT in a debate like this, there are certain givens – i.e. logic as a way of manipulating “inputs”. If you were to challenge me on this point, ask me to evaluate this algorhythm, I wouldn’t be able to do it – but, since you’re presumably not challenging me here, a point based on logic would be sound. A finite recursiveness like this is allowed in monism.

Ramanujan, Lib, I’m going to have to say that I can’t put my argument forward, or it is false. I am not prepared to accept the latter, but I must admit it possible. I still feel that, in a physicalist context, meaning points to objects necessarily if “true” means what we think it means. I think this creates a problem, but I must admit there is no reason I can really put forward why a contradiction can’t be represented by a gate (open or not). I fear that by showing that a contradiction doesn’t represent a contradiction in fact, that all meaning stands in need of a justification.

Let this hang for too long…

algorithms upon algorithms provides that ‘everything is relative’ (including your OP) unless there is an additional layer of abstraction with which to compare one against the other with regards to a specified purpose. The additional layer of abstraction must necessarily be seperated from the algorithms in order for consistency to exist as a process rather than non-existence.

If everything is relative, as this line of reasoning about calculators suggests, then the motion of logic would ultimately seek its own termination; the act of not terminating it right now contradicting the behavior which logically corresponds with the belief that systems of cause and effect are used to express truths, but that cause and effect only exist as delusion. This would suggest that motion is delusion; which either proves for suicide (if the logical context is still being held) OR stasis (if the body corresponds with the proof).

-Justhink

hello again.

My point is that there is no evidence, or possible evidence, that could distinguish logical suicide or stasis from the state of the universe as we know it to be.

Whoops, I see that I probably won’t be getting a response. hmm. oh well.