Neither. Both were a direct result of the downfall of the Ottomans and the impositions (and eventual failures) of European colonialism.
I really like the way you scream bias whenever someone quotes any article sourced from Gaza, but are happy to cite IDF infographics (see the logo in the bottom right) without any concern.
Because, as I have shown, with cites, IDF-reported figures turn out to be correct and confirmed, even by Hamas sources, later. Numbers reported by Hamas during the conflict are shown to be lies. Only years after they finally get to report accurate numbers.
From the beginnings of the rocket campaign ten years ago, Israelis have suffered 2,000 casualties from said rockets and mortars. That’s hardly nothing. The number of attacks is around 15,000, so yes, they are very inaccurate; and the latest Israeli tactics seem to have reduced them in potency.
Of course, actually killing people isn’t the real point. The point is to disrupt normal life - to cause the sirens to go off, day or night, and make everyone on the receiving end run to shelters. That, plus the remote possibility of being blown to bits, can get very wearing.
I’m not wedded to any particular label. Sure, call them “reprisal weapons” if you like.
Seems the discussion has moved on and already was answered, but thought I’d put in this link to riots in Palestine in 1928 which (along with several other such events) were instrumental in forcing the Jews to start thinking about more militant ways of defending themselves than hoping the Brits would save them. There is a lot of history involved in this mess, and it’s unbelievable to me that anyone who chooses to weigh in on this topic would NOT know that there were riots and pogroms against Jews in not only the ME but specifically in the British Mandate, since they were instrumental in how the Jews a decade or so later were so adamant about having their own sovereign state.
Just a quick note, Fenris. This is micrometers from crossing the ‘attack the post, not the poster’ line.
I think I’m going to bow out of this (and any other Israel) thread but I believe that 1928 was well after the beginning of Zionism.
Fair enough, and it was…others had cited some of the many such before what I presume is your beginning of Zionism date, I was merely giving an example of the escalating riots because it’s important to understand the context of how the present situation got here from there.
It’s a fair point.
I thionk the best way of looking at this history is as follows.
Modern, political Zionism is the Jewish version of an ethno-nationalist movement. It was inspired by religious Zionism, which has been around since nearly forever (“Next Year in Jerusalem” being a standard part of Jewish prayer since the fall of the Temple in 70 AD), but it was, in effect, modeled on the strain of thought prevelent in Europe in particular that ethno-nationalism - one nation for every “nationality” - was just, right and natural.
Jewish ethno-nationalism was, however, a hard sell - as Jews were used to living as a minority in other, non-Jewish nations. In places where ethno-nationalism did not take permanent root, such as in the US and Canada, Jews felt little desire to join said movement. However, in places where ethno-nationalism (or other ethnicities) DID take root, or where Jews were actively persecuted, the feeling grew that Jewish ethno-nationalism was ‘the answer’. Only in that way, could Jews protect themselves.
So a trickle of Jews emigrated to Palestine, at first under Turkish rule. The Ottomans were mostly indifferent, or had mixed feelings, about such immigration. On the one hand, it brought in much-needed money to what was widely considered the butt-end of nowhere - Palestine was, at the time, a shithole and the least desireable posting (or one of them) for Ottoman officials. On the other, Turks worried about having an increasing minority presence - mostly, out of fear that various European powers would take an interest in their fate (as they did for Christian minorities).
However, another phenominon - largely unforeseen - also occurred: the simultaneous development of Arab nationalism. Arabs, like Jews, where Turkish subjects; for the new Arab nationalists, as for any ethno-nationalists, a competing ethno-nationality was seen as a threat - and that lead to friction: which generally took the form of Arab attacks on Jews, like the 1929 riots. Albeit, by that time, the Ottomans were history and Palestine was owned by the UK.
Arab rioting merely confirmed, for Zionists, that they needed their own army.
Do you think it’s extremely anti-Semitic to claim that Jews are ritually unclean, that Jews should not be allowed, under penalty of death to ride horses but only be allowed to ride donkeys, and that enforcing such laws would be considered persecution.
Would you say the same for requiring Jews to wear a pig embroidered on their arms?
Would you agree that 1830 and 1839 were before the rise of political Zionism?
given the same number of rockets launched. Yes. You may recall what the response was when Germany sent rockets into England.
Historically: History of antisemitism - Wikipedia
Immediately prior to the beginning of Zionism: History of antisemitism - Wikipedia
While you’re at it, to begin to have some sort of understanding of why the Jewish people returned to Israel rather than fled somewhere else, have a look at the geographical roots of Jewish civilization, for example, the Temple Mount: Temple Mount - Wikipedia
What was the attitude towards Christians in the area? Was it much better than the attitude towards Jews?
Remember all this stuff is relative (I said so in one of the first posts in this tangent). Were jews historically better or worse in Muslim countries than in other countries?
Did muslims historically treat Jews better or worse than other non-muslims (e.g. Christians)?
We’ve already gone over the stuff ~1820 and ~1840
BTW, you got a cite for this stuff? I am not familiar with the requirement that jews had to wear pigs on their arms in muslim countries in the area (at any time, pre or post zionism).
Maybe this is where the disconnect is.
The chronology as I understand it is:
Muslims generally treat jews no worse than they are treated in other countries (you state earlier that Western Europe was far better than Ottoman Europe towards the Jews but istm that over the long arc of history, this was not the case).
Muslims generally treat Jews no worse than they treat other non-muslims in muslim territory (or did they).
Then zionism starts and jews move into Muslim territory to create their own country.
WWI and British mandate.
The number of Jews increases and there is conflict between the immigrants and the natives who both seems to want to carve a nation out of the same land.
People in the area start hating Jews on a widescale level like they have never hated Jews before.
Jews declare a Jewish state in Israel and we know the rest.
If you’re willing to concede that if I provide the cites that the Jews were persecuted and only a complete imbecile would disagree and promise to never once against trying and claim that Jews in the Muslim Middle East weren’t persecuted, If I prove that, I’ll do it.
If not, it’s utterly pointless to talk to you since if you think that claiming Jews are ritually impure, forcing them to live in ghettos, forbid them from riding horses, and wear markings isn’t persecution then you are simply unreasonable when it comes to the Jews.
Also, stop trying to move the goal posts.
You said nothing about how Jews were treated in comparison to Muslims.
I’ll be gentle and not force you to apologize for all the posts you’ve made bitching about how horrible Palestinian Muslims have been treated since Palestinian Christians have been treated at least as badly by the Israelis. By the standards you just foolishly set, then the Palestinian Muslims weren’t mistreated because Palestinian Christians were treated as badly.
Thats very useful.
I’ll have to take a closer look.
I’m not sure I understand why Israel had to be where it is. Why couldn’t some land in Africa serve as the location of a Jewish state, religious significance and attraction aside?
Is your position that Jews were not persecuted or faced discrimination in the Medieval Islamic world?
If they were treated as badly or worse than blacks in the Jim Crow South would you accept the idea that they were persecuted or would that not be good enough for you?
I don’t know. Maybe because that’s the only place there was one before? Or maybe because that’s the only place there was an unbroken Jewish presence for 3800 years?
I’m not saying that Jews were not persecuted in the middle east. I was saying that their persecution does not seem worse than it was elsewhere and that muslims did not seem to persecute them more severely than they persecuted other non-muslims. Sure there are individual localized instances when things got really bad but that’s true of other places and other religions as well. Isn’t it?
I thought I made it clear that we were talking relatively.
Using words like “foolishly” as an adjective does nothing to make this conversation any better. You keep doing this. Its like you have to slip in an insult in every post otherwise you can’t hit the submit reply button or something.