I’m gonna be sick. You are fucking jacking this guy off, you pathetic toady fuck!
No, wait! At least let me get my 2 cents in before you bugger off!
Lib:
Well, primarily because that is the plain meaning of your words. You state, quite flatly and without any modifiers whatsoever, that she is a gnat on a camel’s ass. The misunderstanding is further compounded because Elysian was asking you to clarify your first post – were you accusing MissTake of exhibiting a ”fuck-off” attitude towards her clients? Your answer to this question is to affirm that yes, indeed, you see her as worse than a monster.
This exchange reinforces the general image of you as an unpredictable, irrational, ill-tempered poster. By the time the misunderstanding is finally clarified a significant (and unnecessary) volume of bad vibes has been created, and some people are asking themselves, ”Did he do that on purpose? Is he being intentionally provocative?” The question is no way unreasonable.
I can’t read your mind, Lib, nor divine from one minute to the next if you are being reasonable or unreasonable. I can only read your plain words on the screen. Your response in this instance would lead me to conclude that for some obscure reason you took offense at MissTake’s OP.
Also, please let me offer this small piece of unsolicited advice:
Get thee to the university, then, Lib!
There are pros and cons to being an autodidact, but in my experience – and especially when one gets to a certain level of abstraction – the cons far outweigh the pros. In my opinion, a full appreciation and understanding of the philosophers you mention can only be gained within a university setting, because it is only there that you will come into contact with the traditional intellectual context of these works. If you read them outside of this context, unless you are perhaps a super-genius, you risk of developing highly idiosyncratic interpretations of them, readings at odds with the standard (and probably correct) interpretations.
I only mention this because it happened to me. I spent about a year and a half completely misunderstanding the basics of the sociology of science because I was reading the literature on my own. Having written almost an entire paper, I finally submitted it to my academic supervisor. He was less than impressed. I misunderstood very fundamental stuff – like the sociologists’ rejection of a clear demarcation between science and non-science – and it was both edifying and ego-bruising to finally come to terms with my mistakes. (I was also forced to undertake a major re-write.)
The biggest mistake I made was assuming in advance that I had understood everything and had the answer in hand. From that point I proceeded to interpret everything I read in terms of my preconcieved notions of the field, and discovered to my surprise that all the great thinkers (except, perhaps, Popper) agreed with me! Boy was I wrong.
This mistake is in my opinion the most serious risk run by the autodidact, and I suspect that you are at least as susceptible to it as I was. (Poly noted previously in this thread that your world view was “rather unique,” for example). So, with that in mind, I reiterate my advice:
Get thee to a university and take a few courses!
Thank you, Aeschines. Nobody has ever said anything quite so moving or memorable! Until we meet again, cherie!
Call me!
Dude, you owe me a new keyboard. It’s going to be hard to get the coffee out of this one. Shodan? Highly respected? By whom, exactly? There’s a vocal minority of conservative voices here, and he is one of the stars of that show, but that does not make him respected. You may respect him highly; I don’t. I suspect that a poll of Dopers would find the majority sharing my opinion rather than yours. This may be due to the generally leftist bent of the board, but that’s context. Unless of course, you meant “highly respected” in the same way that the late unlamented Roland Deschain used it to describe Rush Limbaugh.
Back on topic… Liberal, take this for what it’s worth, if you’re still reading.
First, you have something valuable to say. Is it possible that the amount you post here is reducing your signal-to-noise ratio? If you find that you don’t have the time to offer considered, full responses but must instead resort to one-liners, maybe you need to post fewer times and take more time doing so.
Second, if you find your dander is up when you are composing a response, pause. Take a walk, look at the clouds, say hi to your wife. Then come back and decide if the tone you’re taking is the right one.
So am I to conclude that Shodan outranks you in Liberal’s Army of Lackeys?
And they all file out, following their master like lapdogs.
Is it really so foreign a concept to you that people have different priorities from yours? And that theirs are not inherently worse? “Something is rotten in the state of Denmark” is one of theater’s most famous lines, and it’s referenced constantly. Your Biblical reference to swallowing camels is not.
Liberal, I’m trying here. You do things that bother a lot of people, and you don’t seem to want to acknowledge them. My criticism is not meant as an attack; it’s my hope that you can overcome your ego (because everyone has an ego that prevents them from truly examining their own behavior) enough to consider what I’ve said. Instead, you simply want to argue, and you mostly have been arguing by attacking me personally. Your ad hominems don’t hurt because I’ve seen that they’re part and parcel of your interactions with everyone on the board. But they stand in stark contrast to your oft-stated commitment to logical debate. If you’re unwilling to hear any concerns that don’t jibe with your self-conception, then you’re right, we’re done, because there’s no point in continuing. But if you always consider yourself right and those who disagree with you wrong, you can’t improve as a human being, and you won’t find yourself with many friends outside of the small posse of brown-nosers you have trailing your footsteps.
Typical. I finally have something to say, and Liberal’s already left the thread. But I’m going to say it anyway, in case he’s still reading.
First off, you can’t always avoid giving offense. There’s no getting around that in life. On the other hand, you do (and have admitted to) tend to fly off the handle at some points and can seem like more of a jerk than you really are. I think the way to avoid that is to work on not posting while you’re angry. I’m not talking about posting when you’re seeing red and too incoherent to do much more than use the word “Fuck” a lot. You know better than to do that; most of us do. And no one really does much damage when they’re incoherent with anger. At least, not to anyone but themselves.
But then there are those moments when you feel more sure of yourself than you ever have in your life, when you’re positive that you are righter than right and that everyone else is wrong, and when you know exactly what to say, when the words are ripe and ready to come out, ready to make all those bastards sorry they ever disagreed with you. And that’s anger, too. And that’s what you’ve got to learn to recognize. Rick James once said “Cocaine is a helluva drug.” Well, so’s anger. And it is a stimulant, and it can make you feel sharper and clearer and laser-beam focused, and so absolutely strong that you could knock down walls just by staring at them hard enough. And like cocaine, anger can make you do and say absolutely stupid things while thinking that you’ve never been more correct and right in your life.
The next time someone says something unbelievably stupid, and you feel that perfect retort coming on, walk away from the computer. Do something else for a while. Let yourself get grounded again, come down from the anger, and then think about it. If it still feels like the right thing to say, then say it. But if you feel like you’re going to hurt someone unecessarily, then say something else or say nothing at all. It stings, letting that perfect retort go unsaid. It really does. But at the end of the day, I regret the comebacks I’ve delivered much more than I regret the ones I kept to myself.
So, that’s my tuppence. Probably it’s nowhere near as clever or eloquent as I thought it was, but… you know, I felt the need to say it. So it’s said.
:dubious:
If all you are going to post is “Don’t mess with Shodan. He’ll fuck you up,” then I’m going to call you on it. It’s not a defense. It’s not even close. It’s nothin but a big ole kiss on Shodan’s behind. Also, if Shodan is as badass as you make him out to be, then he doesn’t need your help.
Basically, your post had no point except to display your sycophantic behavior. In fact, that’s pretty much been the limit of your contributions to this thread.
And by the by, it was Liberal who wanted to try to learn something from the “nattering nabobs.” All your defense was doing was creating arguments which was why I asked you politely to cut it back a step. You did and I thank you for it. Your post about Shodan however, was too idiotic to let go.
Considering the number of posts Lib has made to this thread, I would hardly classify him as “above the fray”.
Or is that another obscure phrase that you don’t quite understand?
Isn’t it interesting that many of those who object to Lib the most strenously in general tend to be the ones who fail to understand him?
I am sure there are a number of reasons for this. Part of it might be because he is smarter than most of us. Thus it is easy for the intellectual lesser lights to miss what he is saying, as it is beyond their ability to grasp.
I am sure you are familiar with the phenomenon. 
Or perhaps people tend to look for things to disagree with/attack in his posts. Heaven knows this is not rare on the SDMB - I am certainly guilty of it, particularly with some of the morons hereabouts. It seems I am not the only one, however. Do you think that might be so?
Compared with the Bible, as we have been discussing? I am sorry to say that you are mistaken. The Bible is the most widely distributed book in the world for the last fifteen hundred years or so, and its influence on Western culture is unparalleled. There isn’t any comparison to the work you mention. YMMV, but it doesn’t matter if it does. You’re just wrong.
It happens.
So presenting your own position in a precis, and mentioning what you consider its best point, is “sharply dishonest”. Misrepresenting your opponent’s position is merely “hyperbole”.
How convenient.
Right. Nine paragraphs of you “not interested in arguing” with me. Right.
No comment necessary.
Regards,
Shodan
I’m hoping that there is a whoosh here because if there isn’t, the much feared Shodan just showed up to give Liberal a blow job and he isn’t even here to receive it.
What’s interesting to me was the number of people that came in and said that Liberal came across as insulting, condescending, and intentionally unclear. Some were polite about it. Some were rude. Some were downright nasty. Most of em said it though. Hopefully Liberal has taken that with him and let the venom that came with it behind.
What I find really fascinating is that, if I’m remembering correctly, even Liberal didn’t come in and say that he was too smart for the lesser lights of the board. I don’t think he even responded in that fashion to any of his critics here. I could be wrong. It’s a mighty big thread. I’m sure that says something about some of the posters hereabouts.
No, it wasn’t a whoosh. It was intended mostly as a dig at Excalibre. But you are correct in thinking that I consider Lib to be pretty smart, even for a Doper.
No, that was me. And, as I said, it was aimed primarily at one poster.
Sometimes people are misunderstood because they explain themselves badly, sometimes because the audience doesn’t share some experience with the poster, or whatever. Sometimes they are being intentionally deceptive. Sometimes they are being deliberately misunderstood, because the rest of the board doesn’t like the argument and can’t counter it effectively. Some Dopers are notorious for that.
And sometimes it is because a bunch of people have a hard-on for certain Dopers already, and then come into a thread spoiling for a fight. That happens too. It isn’t always completely intentional.
Don’t know precisely what happened in the “camel/gnat” thread. But it didn’t seem all that hard to understand to me.
Lib’s been here almost from the get-go, and he’s got ten million posts. And he takes a lot of non-mainstream positions - he’s a strict libertarian, Objectivist, Christian, etc. Of course he is going to be misunderstood, for a lot of reasons.
But I like him - I’ve said that before. He adds a lot to the SDMB.
Regards,
Shodan
PS - “Much feared”? :dubious:
We lackeys never get any respect.
Tris
“You could park a car in the shadow of his ass.” ~ Geena Davis, in Thelma and Louise ~
No, I would second that. You’re good and you’re smart, much like Liberal, and I would only take either of you on if I knew what I was about, but I don’t fear an anonymous poster on a message board, no matter how many damn posts they have.
You’re both smart and passionate posters, and I appreciate your input in most of the debates I’ve participated in with you, and I do respect both of your opinions even when I disagree (which seems to be most of the time). I do think **Liberal ** gets a bit pedantic at times, and it sometimes takes a lot of whacking with a big stick by a lot of people to make him admit mistakes, but overall his input on this board is positive far more than negative.
BTW - anyone who thinks I am fellating either of you jokers can take a flying fuck at a running doughnut for all I care. 
I do my bit to fight ignorance and all, but neither of you fits that particular bill. More like convincing smart people that they are fundamentally flawed in their individual political outlooks - that’s sure to win me friends 
Dude, put down the pom-poms. Not only are they unbecomimg at your advanced age but you’re liable to give yourself a hernia what with all that flailing.
Beyond that, you’re rather amusing in pathetic fashion. A lackey-boy adding nothing more of substance that his own tonge deeply burrowed inside the sphincters of his masters. Hate to tell you – well, not really, I relish it – but your idols’ feet are built of the softest clay; it’s in their hardened skuls where the problem resides.
For instance, watch yours truly toy with Master Shodan in this thread.
And all it took was a smidgeon of common sense. Then again, I can see how members of the make our own reality crowd – and their cheerleaders – would have problems connecting those two words together.
Rah rah! USA #1!
Godamn zombie.
As for Lib, I think Aeschines said all that needs to be said in this post. Afraid that for all the good faith and patience shown by some of the posters, ultimately, we’ve only contributed to the never-ending masturbatory exercise that constitutes Lib’s paramount raison d’etre for being here.
May the next 20,000 arrive in good health, Lib! As in keeping your pecker firmly attached to the rest of you. Then again, no reason to fret – after all, they are one and the same.
Cheers.
Oh yes, that thread - the one where you said Iraq had WMDs.
Or is that thread where you suddenly reversed yourself once you realized that you had lost the argument?
Never mind, I see it was the same thread.
Regards,
Shodan
PS - Thanks for the warm thoughts, GomiBoy which are fully reciprocated.
You didn’t read Starving Artists post about you? Made it sound as if you were scarier than God, Satan, and Cecil all rolled into one.
And thank you for the clarification. I figured you were aiming the remark at Excalibre, but it sounded as if you were painting with the big brush. Must’ve been the part about the boards “lesser lights” :dubious:
I still dislike posts comparing the intelligence of dopers with regards to whose is higher. It’s one thing to call a person a moron. To say that they are not smart enough to understand another poster is another.
And while Excalibre may have it in for Liberal, and to be honest I don’t think he does compared to some others in this thread, it doesn’t mean that he is in any way less intelligent than him.
As far as the “gnat on a camel’s ass” quote, I can very easily see how that can be misconstrued if one is unfamiliar with the bible verse he is adapting from. For starters, it sounds like a middle eastern variation of the well known “boil on the bottom of humanity” chestnut. I could go on, but I think we’ve beaten that camel enough.
I can usually understand Liberal nowadays. That is to say, I can understand him once he get’s past the drive by posting part of a thread and gets down to brass tacks. I still look at his posts sometimes and wonder “Does he know what that sounds like?”
Listen, you strutting fool, of course he did!
And I frankly think such insults are completely inappropriate, even in The Pit. Keep it civil.
Jesus, what a petty creep you can be!
Daniel
Excalibre, Harborwolf, RedFury, Brainiac4, Hentor…
Have you bozos no sense of humor?
You are taking way too seriously what I poked at you in fun.
Typical. :rolleyes:
Trisk, indeed we lackeys have frustrating lives. Of course, you and I both know we’re no such thing. But we can take heart in the fact that the lame accusations that we are seem to be the best our opponents can come up with as a means of contesting what we say: “Oh, yeah…Oh, yeah…Well, you guys are just lackeys! That’s all you are. LALALALALA…we can’t hear you, you’re just lackeys so we don’t have to listen to you…LALALALA.”
Boy, Danny! It doesn’t take much to get under your skin, does it?
You know, after one of your frequent whinings that I was being mean to you I offered an olive branch. You sneered at it, said you didn’t like me, and in essense told me to fuck off. So the gloves are off, asspipe. I don’t give a fuck what you think is appropriate, or even what you think for that matter, and I’ll keep it as civil or uncivil as I think is appropriate. I always try to be civil and usually only get ugly with someone after they’ve become ugly with me first. Witness the interplay with Excalibre in this thread as an example.
So fuck off, boyo.
Gosh, did you take that as an insult? I thought it was a pretty obvious paraphrase of MacBeth’s “Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow” soliloquy–I was just commenting on the futility of threads like this. You know, how it creeps in this petty pace from day to day, etc.
I guess I need to remember that some people are younger or perhaps just too busy to familiarize themselves with the great works of English literature. Sometimes I manage to give offense without meaning to, you know, and people take what I say completely the wrong way.
No offense taken, right?
Daniel
But you see, 'O Left Hand of Dumbness, there is a key difference. Lib’s post was not intended to be sarcastic, whereas yours was.
But, no offense taken. In order to take offense, one would have to care at least somewhat about the opinion of the offender.
Cheers.