They didn’t drag the rope of thornes through the penis. The queens did pull the barbed cord through their tounges.
Y’know, between this thread and the “Prince Albert” thread, I’m gonna spend the entire weekend with my legs strategically crossed and a wince on my face…
JMCJ
This is not a sig.
Time for the bris!
“I have gathered a posie of other men’s flowers, and nothing but the
thread that binds them is mine own.”
I agree that reading from the Torah is an important part of the ritual. But you are completely wrong if you believe that the ritual itself is necessary to be bar mitzvah. As I said before, it is only a ceremony.
I refer you to Judaism 101: Bar Mitzvah, Bat Mitzvah and Confirmation for additional confirmation.
- Rick
According to Jewish law if your mother is a Jew. The children are regardless of the father.
If a woman converts to Judaism, her children are considered Jews by birth.
If you are born a Jew and you volentarely (sp?) do not practice your religion you remain a Jew
HERE IS THE KICKER
If you born a Jew and you GIVE UP ANDPRACTICE another religion…You cease to be a Jew.
Your children aren’t Jews by birth.
Also in some sects of Judaism girls are NOT bat mitzvah, they do not get anything 
No. You can’t convert to another religion and remain Jewish. The only source I can come up with for this off the top of my head isn’t religious, but I’m sure that someone else out there knows one, although you may have to wait til Saturday night for the response. Anyway, the Israeli Law of Return allows anyone with one Jewish grandparent (and their spouses and children) to become an Israeli citizen. In, I believe the 1970s, a Catholic priest whose family was historically Jewish wanted to make aliyah (become an Israeli), and fought his way through the Israeli court system to be granted citizenship. Anyway, the Supreme Court - which is, granted, a secular court - said that no, since he had converted to another religion, he was no longer Jewish.
If you are not the one who converted (ie, was raised practicing another religion), or the last practicing family member was really far back, as with Revtim, conversion would probably be required if he wanted to become an active member of a synagogue. The conversion process, which takes from six months to a year or so, is mostly schooling on the history and practices involved in Judaism and trying to talk the convert out of converting. Most of my personal experiences in dealing with these kinds of cases are secular - that is, based on trying to gain Israeli citizenship - but this law happens to be based on Orthodox religious law (and an inversion of the Nuremburg Laws). For instance, I knew a Puerto Rican girl in Israel whose family was Marrano (Spanish Jews who pretended to convert to Catholicism during the Inquisition), but she was raised Catholic. Her older brother had to convert to Judaism to make aliyah.
As for the symbolic brit, my friend’s fiance converted to Judaism, and he told me about the drop of blood without squirming or shuddering.
Anyway, Revtim, if you want to know more about Judaism or Jewish history, I’d be more than happy to talk with you, but IMHO, it takes more than bloodlines to make a Jew. According to Orthodox law, I’m not Jewish, although I have more Jewish ancestors than any other group, not to mention that I actually practice Judaism!
Shabbat shalom v’shavua tov!
~Harborina
“This is my sandbox. I’m not allowed to go in the deep end. That’s where I saw the leprechauns.”
mipsman,
I stand corrected. I read through MAYA COSMOS and it refers to kings drawing the ropes through their penis. I don’t remember Prof. Freidel mentioning it in class though, even though he co-wrote the book.
And just how many tries did it take to figure that out !?
Wasn’t there some arch in Europe that, should a Jew walk underneath, they’d automatically become a non-Jew?
Seraphim, although I’ve never heard that story, the arch is probably the Arch of Titus, in Rome. The Arch was built to commemorate the destruction of the Second Temple, so Jews don’t really think all that highly of it. I hope that the curse doesn’t apply to Jews who climb around in the scaffolding around the Arch…or I wouldn’t have done it, I swear!
~Harborina
“This is my sandbox. I’m not allowed to go in the deep end. That’s where I saw the leprechauns.”
As far as I understand, this is not correct, secular Israeli law notwithstanding. If you are a born Jew, but convert to another religion, you may be considered an apostate, but you certainly don’t lose your right to do t’shuvah (returning) and rejoin the Jewish community. While you profess the other religion, you probably wouldn’t be counted in a minyan (a quorum of 10 Jews necessary for performing certain public prayers), but you’d certainly still be considered, halachically, a Jew.
Now, if you are a convert to Judaism, then convert back to your original (or some other) religion, your original conversion might be considered to have been insincere. At that point, you might need to re-convert in order to rejoin the Jewish community. But good luck finding a bet din (rabbinic court) to do it, under those circumstances. In general, I think a case like this would need to be handled based on individual circumstance by a competent halachic authority. I have no idea what happens in the case of Jewish children of a mother who is a convert, but is later determined to have converted insincerely. My guess would be that if they do not leave the community, they do not lose their status, even if the mother does, but that’s another question for a Rabbi (and they never make official rulings on hypotheticals–if there’s no case law on this, we could end up arguing it forever to no real conclusion).
Rick
As Bricker has already pointed out, becoming bar/bat mitzvah requires absolutely no ritual at all–it is simply a matter of reaching a certain age.
Even the traditional ritual doesn’t necessarily involve reading from the Torah scrall, however. The minimal commemoration of the event simply involves calling the bar mitzvah to the Torah to say the (very short) blessings before and after the reading of a small portion by the baal k’ria (Torah reader, or, literally, Master of the Chanting) during a service during which the Torah is read–on Shabbat, Monday or Thursday. The family of the honoree would then have a festive meal. That’s pretty much what was done when my father became bar mitzvah in a small Orthodox congregation in 1948.
What is certainly more common these days is for the bar/bat mitzvah to also read a haftarah (a section from the Prophets that usually relates to the week’s Torah portion in some way), plus lead part of the services and possibly also read from the Torah scroll for at least a small part of the weekly portion. And, of course, there are the obscene parties and gifts. (These last will not be part of the b’nai mitzvot of my children a decade from now. :)) But none of this is actually required.
Rick
(“It” being, of course, the hatafat dam brit or covenant of the drop of blood, required for conversion of a previously circumcised male to Judaism.)
So whadda ya wanna know?
Who: just the mohel and me;
Where: the men’s shower area outside the mikveh at the synagogue where my bet din met;
When: just before I appeared before the members of the bet din;
How: with a standard syringe and needle, applied to the underside of the member in question, just enough to draw a couple of drops of blood, which were then applied to a piece of gauze to be displayed to the rabbis sitting on the bet din;
How much did it hurt: a bit, but nothing that I even noticed once it was over – though I did have plenty of other things to think about at the time.
Now guys who aren’t alreay circumcised are the ones I pity . . . .
Disagreeing with Mark and Kyla, and agreeing with Rick. If you were born Jewish, but convert to another religion, you can “return” to being Jewish simply by declaration that you have done so. No conversion is necessary.
I’m not sure how far that “maternal line” thing goes, though. If your grandmother or mother converted, I think you would lose your claim to being Jewish, but I’m not sure on that point.
The basic thing to remember is that, unlike the other religions, there are a whole lot of intepretations of what it means to be “Jewish.” There’s Jews by choice, Jews by birth, and Jews under law.
-
There is the legal interpretation under Israeli law. Israeli law includes the Law of Return, that any Jew can claim sanctuary in Israel and becomes a citizen of Israel immediately. Thus, for purposes of Israeli law, it is critical to know whether a person is “Jewish” or not. There have been interesting interpretations of this; a person who converted to Catholicism and then wanted to reconvert to Judaism was, under the Law of Return, told that he didn’t need to reconvert, he was “born Jewish.” On the other hand, a Catholic priest who had a Jewish mother was denied Israeli citizenship; that was too far. The Ethiopian Jews were declared to be Jewish (“descended from one of the lost tribes,” I think) so that they could be brought to Israel under Israeli law.
-
There is the common sense, every day religion sense, that you are Jewish if you do things like go to synagogue or practice the religion or declare yourself to be Jewish. This is the litmus test: do you consider yourself Jewish?
-
There is whether outsiders consider you Jewish. The prime example, of course, is the Nazi regime, which considered you “Jewish” if you had one Jewish grandparent. Thus, people who thought of themselves as good Christians (for three generations!) were rounded up and sent to the death camps, labelled “Jews”.
It’s quite a complex topic. In today’s society, no one is going to point a finger at you can call you Jewish, Rev, if you don’t want to be – not with just a Jewish grandmother. However, if you WANT to be Jewish and call yourself such, that’s a different story.
Why do I have the feeling that there is some poking fun at Jews and our customs going on in this thread? I’ll choose to ignore those replies and focus only on the legitimate questions.
Phobia asked…
And Markxxx said…
Then Kyla said…
I’m afraid there is a lot of misinformation flying around here. That is not true at all.
The Talmud says, “Once a Jew, Always a Jew.”
A basic principle enunciated in the Talmud and in the later codes of Jewish law is that a Jew is a Jew forever, even if he sins and abandons Judaism in favor of another religion. As a sinner he may forfeit some privileges, but he does not lose his basic Jewish rights.
A convert or any other Jew who joins a non-Jewish religious sect, such as Jews for Jesus, is not entitled to any of the privileges granted Jews under the Israeli Law of Return. This ruling was handed down in a unanimous 1989 decision of the Israeli supreme court (the High Court of Justice). It declared that the Law of Return identifies a Jew as a person born of a Jewish mother or one who has converted to Judaism, but excludes anyone who is a member of a different faith.
While a Jewish defector loses much credibility as a Jew and may be denied some privileges, he cannot be denied all rights as a Jew, for the legal principle of “once a Jew, always a Jew” still applies. Thus, a Jewish apostate may be denied the privileges of the Law of Return, but he cannot, for example, be denied the right of inheritance. Nor is the apostate freed of all obligations: he is required to give his wife a Jewish divorce (get) should she want to remarry.
A Jew who abandons Judaism, joins another faith, and then subsequently has a change of heart can return to Judaism without going through the conversion process. In Jewish law, a Jew who abandons his religion in favor of another faith is still considered a Jew. He is considered no more than a sinner. The Talmud says, "A Jew, even if he sins [by abandoning his faith] is still a Jew."
A child born to a Jewish woman after she has defected to another religion is considered a Jew. That means that if Revtim’s great great grandmother was a Jew, her daughter (his great grandmother) was a Jew no matter what religion she practiced. And if she was a Jew, so was her daughter, his grandmother. So, then, was his mother, and so is he. His children, however, will not be Jews unless he “returns” to the Jewish faith and marries either a woman who was born into Judaism or a recognized convert before they have children.
“How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world.” - Anne Frank
::sheepish::
Sorry for spreading misinformation. My info was all secular, and I shouldn’t have been repeating it anyway.
~Harborina
“This is my sandbox. I’m not allowed to go in the deep end. That’s where I saw the leprechauns.”
Shayna punim ! I didn’t see anyone making fun, or being offensive. People offered up thoughts, and being ignorant is , as we all know, TOTALLY different than being stupid. Nothing here to get your Tallas in a twist over !! I smiled through all 35 postings to this thread…easy, my little dumpling.
Rev, as far as yearning for knowledge on your newly rediscovered religion, might I recommend a hearty two-volume tome entitled, " The Jewish Book of Why". It’s got an amazing amount of information, offered in a non-preachy way. I’ve always wanted to pen a thin and smarmy companion item called, “The Jewish Book of Why Not??”. Some day…
To be honest, I don’t know the Law here, but I will be glad to throw in my Bar Mitzvah’d impressions anyway. In the Reform ( and possible Reconstructionist?) Movement, the ONLY single act that HAS to happen to constitute a Bar or Bat Mitzvah is actually being called to read from the Torah. Everything else is gravy/ padding, etc. Speeches get made, and family members are up there with you. I learned about Hasidic Bar Mitzvahs by reading" The Chosen" by Chaim Potok. It’s much more subtle in that arena. You simply are the one to do the day’s portion. Of course, the pressure is still terrific, but it’s just the normal part of the service. ( Orthodoxy, please correct me here? No special Aliah’s, no speeches, right??)
Prior to that moment, you are regarded as a child in the eyes of your community. After that, you are not, and can be counted as a member of ANY Minion, anywhere in the world.
Ancilliary aspects, such as being able to be married off, aren’t a part of the Bar Mitzvah moment. Nor is chopped liver ( although personally it should be). The famed phrase" Today, You are a Man/Woman" is the crux of it all.
Mine was in Philly, at Congregation Rodeph Shalom. First Day of Succoth, many years ago. Standing there, in the oldest Ashkenazic shul in North America. The Succah was over my head, INDOORS, on the Bima. ( Mind you, this shul is immense with a vaulted domed ceiling. Looks like a Byzantine Temple ). Smelled wonderful in there, with all of that stuff. A terrific day. I only screwed up once, and it wasn’t on my Torah portion. <sigh> At least I didn’t let my fingers touch the sheepskin…
Cartooniverse
If you want to kiss the sky, you’d better learn how to kneel.
Cartooniverse, with all due respect, please do not condescend to me. My Tallas isn’t in a twist, I simply made an observation. One which I even indicated I chose not to address further.
However, now that you’ve made an issue of it, I would like to remind you that nowhere in my reply did I state that misinformation or ignorance of the facts was even remotely the same thing as being stupid. As a matter of fact, I specifically said that I was addressing the legitimate questions raised here. Therefore you can safely infer that I considered the responses that contained misinformation to not only not be the ones poking fun, but found them to be legitimate in spite of them not being factual. Neither Phobia, Kyla nor Markxxx are stupid and I didn’t even imply that.
Nor did I ever use the word, “offensive.” Please don’t put words in my mouth. Here is exactly what I said…
That you could read some of the replies here and not see that is up to you. We don’t all see things the same way as each other. And just because I found some of the replies to be making fun of Jews doesn’t make my observations any less legitimate, or deserving of your patronizing tone.
And in case you’re wondering, the replies that I felt were poking fun of Jews were the following…
[/quote]
and
And yes, I have a sense of humor, in case you were wondering about that, too.
“How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world.” - Anne Frank
ARGH!!!
The ONLY single act that HAS to happen to constitute a bar or bat mitzvah is the person in question drawing breath the day they turn thirteen or twelve, respectively. Reform, Conservative, Orthodox - doesn’t matter. What do you think the term means? “Son of the commandments.” It’s that point at which you are bound by the obligations of being one of G-d’s Chosen People.
A thirteen-year-old may validly be one of the ten to make up a minyan without ever having been called to read the Torah. And the reason he’s called to read the Torah for the bar mitzvah ceremony is not because it’s essential, but because it demonstrates that he can now participate.
If you don’t know, learn.
I suppose this should frustrate me so much, but as a Gentile, it irks me to see Jews unaware of the Law. And I know you’re not alone; as I said earlier in this thread, the misconception is wide-spread. But it’s still a misconception, and given that the focus of this place is fighting ignorance… well, 'nuff said.
- Rick
Uh, Rev; you might want to rephrase that last line.