Shayna: You have my apologies. I surely meant no disrespect. Perhaps my attempt at levity was badly timed, and for that you have my utter regrets. Trust me. It’s just not my way to attack my fellow T.M. here. I’m a truly sorry.
Bricker? Some quotes perhaps? Direct info? I am going to try to find this in MY copy of the “Jewish Book of Why”, and see what we see. I’m also calling my Rabbi.
Cartooniverse
If you want to kiss the sky, you’d better learn how to kneel.
Calling your rabbi is a fine plan.
I had earlier in this thread provided the link Judaism 101:Bar Mitzvah, Bat Mitzvah and Confirmation", which confirms (no pun intended) my assertions as well.
Given the amount of misinformation here, it would probably be useful for someone to summarize correctly. I think that Shayna’s post has hit the nail on the head (no circumscision reference intended.)
One area that Shayna leaves out is that the answer to the question of “Is this person a Jew?” depends on who’s doing the asking, and why.
The state of Israel as a sovereign nation asks from the perspective of the Law of Return, since an affirmative answer grants citizenship.
Orthodox and Conservative Jews follow the Talmudic rules, which asks from the perspective of religious obligation (such as, Can this person be counted in the quorum required for certain prayers?)
Reform Jews answer the question from the perspective of trying to broaden the religious base, and so are willing to consider patrilinear descent, for instance, as a mark of Jewishness. (This has caused considerable rift between the branches of Judaism, since the Orthodox and Conservative are now unsure whether someone declared Jewish under Reform rules meets the talmudic standard. But let’s not get into that.)
-Common sense says that someone who is an active, practicing Methodist isn’t Jewish, regardless of his/her grandparantage.
So someone could be considered Jewish under one set of criteria, but not under another. For example, if Rev (who started this mess) has a Jewish grandmother and decides he wants to become Jewish, then the conversion process if much easier than for someone who did not have a Jewish matrilinear ancestor.
For what it’s worth:
I am a born-again Christian who met my wife in a non-denominational Charismatic church. She turned out to be Jewish, but her parents were antagonistic to Judaism, and so she had not been raised that way. Years after we got married, she decided to return to Judaim.
My wife had been talking with a Reform rabbi, who was thrown as to what to do. She recognized that the Orthodox would recognize my wife and our children as being Jewish, but other Jews might not, and that might present problems for my children when they married.
She had my wife and my children take a mikveh, say some prayers, and a document was signed by three rabbis to document the occasion (one of you can fill in the blanks as to the terminology). We joined that Reform rabbi’s synagogue, where I sign in the choir. My first exposure to High Holidays was on the bima with the choir (a little nerve-wracking, to say the least…).
That’s “sing” in the choir, not “sign”.
I gotta tell you - This is one of the most interesting posts I’ve read here in a while. Obviously, I’m partial - I’m an Orthodox Jew.
Of course, in this forum, I’m wary of using the term “expert,” but I have been raised Orthodox, I practiced Orthodox Judaism my entire life, I’ve attended private Elementary and High Schools as well as University, and I taught for two years in a Yeshiva High School. I’ve worked in informal Jewish Youth Education for over 10 years.
Whew - all that said, there are two basic questions floating around here:
1 - The whole bar/bat mitzva/Jewish identity thing, and
2 - APB9999’s far more interesting question about work on the Sabbath.
The answers:
1 - Plain and simple (the straight dope, right?): Classical Jewish thought does not see Judaism as a religion - it’s a nationality. Trying to convert to another religion would be like me trying to renounce the fact that I was born American. It’s part of who I am, whether I identify with the group or not.
As far as bar/bat mitzva goes, the whole party and ceremony is fluff. NOTHING is required of the young man or woman - being bar/bat mitzva simply means that the youth in question is now obligated by Jewish Law as an adult.
That seems backwards to me, and I’ve wondered about it before. I can slog up a mountain by foot, panting and sweating, and that’s okay, but if I drive to the top it counts as work? I don’t mean to be flippant - well, at least, no more flippant than I am about everything else - but I’m curious how this thinking originated. Who decided that riding a car (or an animal for that matter) was work, and why.
(ENDQUOTE)
Jewish Law does not forbid “work” on the sabbath, it forbids “Melacha” (a Hewbrew word with the same root as “Malach,” which means “Angel.” On the Sabbath, a Jew is forbidden from doing any activity which sends his will out over the world (like sending an Angel out to do a mission, get it?) So, on the Sabbath, I can’t write, use electricity, build a house, or do any activity through which my will is exercised to change the world around me.
Riding an animal is not forbidden per se. But, the Sages forbade it lest I come to tear a branch off of a tree to spur the aniamal on (NSPCA forgive me!).
SO (big breath) “The Frisco Kid” is not a reliable primary source on Jewish Law, though it is a GREAT movie. A Rabbinic prohibition forbids a Jew from riding an animal on the Sabbath, but there is no prohibition against walking (up to a certain distance, but that is another, even more complicated story).
Sorry for the length - hope this helps.
Most of these questions have been answered by others in their own ways, but I figured I ought weigh in anyway. My disclaimer, as always is that the answers I give speak for Orthodox Judaism; the other branches could very well have different answers, and it’s up to you which to believe (if any, of course).
Yes. If someone is a Jew, he has the responsibility to obey all the commandments of the Torah. This responsibility cannot be abrogated, either by willful acts of rejection, or by accident of ignorance.
Of course, one who is ignorant of his religion is not considered sinful, as he didn’t know.
The problem here, as is often the case, is a mistranslation of a Hebrew word. There are two Hebrew words that are commonly translated into English as “work.” “Avodah” means work as in exertion of energy. The thing that’s forbidden on Sabbath is known as “Melachah”, which specifically connotes creative work.
The prohibition of Melachah on Sabbath is mentioned in the Torah in connection with the construction of the Tabernacle (Exodus 29, I think). From this, the Rabbis derive that all categories of work necessary to create the Tabernacle and its associated items are what’s included in the prohibition. They compiled a list of 39 such categories, which are discussed at length in the Talmud and numerous works of Jewish legal (halachic) literature.
Driving a car at the very least violates the prohibition of lighting a flame, as it uses an internal combustion engine. The animal issue is a bit more complicated, but you get the basic idea here.
What has come to be commonly considered the “bar mitzvah ritual” is not a requirement for the bar mitzvah (as circumcision is for a bris). It’s more of a celebration of the Bar Mitzvah.
As others have pointed out, one is Bar Mitzvah – responsible for the fulfillment of the Biblical commandments – upon turning thirteen (and a girl is upon turning twelve). One who is not responsible to fulfill the commandments cannot perform acts which fulfill the responsibility on behalf of others. Such acts include the reading of the Torah in the sysnagogue, and making the blessings over having the Torah read. The Bar Mitzvah reading the Torah and reciting those blessings are a celebration of the fact that he’s now able to do this on behalf of the congregation…but he is not required to do this in order to be “Bar Mitzvah.”
This is not the viewpoint of Orthodox Judaism.
Maybe in the eyes of the non-Jews, but the Jews would still have considered him Jewish.
Chaim Mattis Keller
Like several other posters, I too, disagree with this claim. But rather than simply repeat our mantra (“Once a Jew, always a Jew.”), I’d like to go a step further and suggest how this error came about. Urban Legends are much more easily countered once you understand their sources.
Namely: We should distinguish between the obligations of a Jew, and the privleges of being a Jew.
A Jew has certain obligations - let’s take eating matzah at a Passover Seder as one simple example - and implicit in the concept of “obligation” is that it is not optional, one has to do it. One cannot escape that obligation simply by switching to another religion, any more than a US citizen might escape his income tax obligation by becoming a citizen of another country. (I’m talking about the tax on income which he earned while still in the US with US citizenship; once the obligation to pay tax is incurred, moving elsewhere won’t help.)
On the other hand, there are certain priveleges to being Jewish, such as counting towards a minyan, the minimum quorum of ten needed for certain synagogue rituals. Burial in a Jewish cemetary is another. Historically, many Jewish communities have withheld these priveleges from people in order to apply social pressure against defections to other religions. In olden times, when Jewish identity was very strong, and almost everyone observed the laws to the letter, one might lose these priveleges merely by publicly working on the Sabbath.
As time went on, such measures would have less and less, and would be used only for more serious breaches of one’s Jewish identity, such as marriage to a non-Jew. Nowadays, when so many people have such weak ties to the Jewish community, many feel that even people who have intermarried should not be written off in this manner. But through it all, it has always been considered reasonable that if a person has voluntarily left Judaism for another faith, then that person, by his own admission, should not be entitled to the priveleges of being Jewish.
Then again, despite such sanctions being imposed on such a person, he cannot simply “opt out” of the obligations of being Jewish either. The bottom line remains that he is a Jew, and if she is female, then her children will be Jews as well, as well as her daughters’ children, ad infinitum.
If any of these people chooses to rejoin the Jewish people, then technically no conversion of any kind is necessary. Practically speaking, however, the community and/or rabbi might request or require some kind of ritual, in order to impress upon the person the importance of this rejoining.
Also, in cases where the rejoining is after several generations – such as in Revtim’s case – it might be advisable to go through a conversion ceremony, just in case some misinformation got mixed up into the story. In other words, to whatever extent we are sure that Revtim’s maternal great-great grandmother was Jewish, then we are sure about Revtim as well, but to whatever extent we suspect that there might be some error in this newly discovered information after four generations, then CYA.
Boy am I ever dense. I finally figured out what this means. I guess “Revtim” is short for “Reverend Tim”?
I stand…er…doven corrected. I live in the town in upstate NY that incorporates the Orthodox Jewish Villiage of Kyras Joel.
What have I learned? NEVER EVER argue with Orthodoxy. I truly thought that in order to be considered Bar/Bat Mitzvah, you had to be called to read. I’m wrong. A little less ignorance in my pocket.
Cartooniverse
If you want to kiss the sky, you’d better learn how to kneel.
Feh. That’s " Kiryas Joel ". <sigh> typed too fast, didn’t proofread, my bad.
Cartooniverse
If you want to kiss the sky, you’d better learn how to kneel.
What if you mother was not jewish but your father was? Would I still be considered jewish. I was raised as a non-practicing Jew in a Jewish neighborhood and dont really know where I stand.
According to Jewish law you’re not Jewish unless your mother is Jewish or you’ve undergone a kosher conversion. I think the Reform movement recognizes patrilineal descent (you’re Jewish if you’re father is Jewish) but since I’m not Reform I can’t say for sure.
batgirl has it right. All branches of Judaism other than Reform will not consider you Jewish unless your mother was (or you converted), regardless of who your father is. Reform will consider you Jewish if you had one Jewish parent, whichever of the two it might be.
Chaim Mattis Keller
I think this thread has run its course, let’s not start all over again.