No it doesn’t.
Oh no. I totally knew. In fact, most of his friends already knew. I had even asked him about it a few times in private. He always denied it. I told him I would leave the door open for him if he ever wanted to talk. I guess he just wasn’t ready, and I was cool with that. I just figured he wanted to keep that stuff private, which was his right.
I agree. I think it’s a shame that he couldn’t have just lived his life the way he wanted in the first place. He would have done this stuff (sowing wild oats) as a teenager like most people do. In a thirty-something year old man that behavior is a little jarring, especially since it’s such a 180 from where he was before.
Thank you for your being frank. You’re being a little harsh, but I think I needed to hear your viewpoint. Look, if I was being a selfish A-hole I wouldn’t have bothered seeking advice on how to handle this.
BTW - he was never my doormat. I helped him A LOT more than just taking care of someone’s guinea pigs. He lived with Asperger’s syndrome for almost thirty years until I persuaded him to get tested. It has changed his life 100% for the positive to know that he’s not the outcast/weirdo he thought he was. I have always been his cheerleader. I even got him his current job. He wasn’t a washup. He was just repressed. I’m glad that he’s found his own personal renaissance. What I don’t appreciate is the alienation and being treated like I don’t matter anymore. We both relied on each other pretty heavily. He’s replaced me with people who couldn’t care less about him. The fact that he devalues me due to gender hurts. I’m not ashamed to admit it.
It’s not. Not at all. It’s just that I can’t speak about his perspective on the matter because he won’t talk to me about it. I can only speak for myself, which generally lends itself to a lot of “I” statements. I can see how it could come off differently, though.
He didn’t need to “fall over himself” to make me happy. He just needed to acknowledge the situation was a little f’ed up. I didn’t even want the apology. This “acquaintance” is someone who sponged off of him and his boyfriend and didn’t pay any rent. This guy not only tried to seduce my boyfriend, but was kind of being a dick to my friend. My friend didn’t just ignore it, which probably would have been OK too. Instead, he and his other bear friends LECTURED me like I was a child because there’s no way I could possibly understand the situation. They didn’t specifically encourage it, but they did condone it and attempt to make me think it was perfectly OK, normal for their social circle. (And yes, with the exception of me, everyone in the room having that discussion had slept with one another at some point. [My boyfriend wasn’t present.]) Maybe I could if they tried to talk to me about it. Instead, like I said, it is impossible to get the truth or a complete answer from him or his friends. Why do I deserve this? Because we were best friends. We were a team. We wrote songs together and went on trips. We won chili cook-offs and did all sorts of fun stuff together. We were very, very close. Yes, he helped me, but that went both ways. I WANT to understand what he’s going through. I want to be a good friend to him. I am starting to think more and more that I just need to back off and see what happens.
I’m worried for him, too. I have been an ally a long time and have several friends with HIV. I know it’s out there. I am scared for him. I think that may be the biggest reason why I’m so reluctant to let go. Then again, he’s a grown man, so there’s really nothing I can do. He is on track to learn things the hard way.
Like I said, I think you’re being harsh, but I think I needed to hear it.
This entire answer makes so much sense to me. You and many others have hinted that I just need to live and let live. I am beginning to think you’re right. He and his friends have made it perfectly clear that they don’t respect my relationship because, “Monogamy isn’t natural.” This is probably the approach I will end up taking.
I would agree he is going through a “kid in a candy store” syndrome. There used to be a phrase that was only half in jest, “So many men, so little time…”
Give him time - but consider that he has basically been hiding so long, this new found freedom will take some time to get used to. Right now, his world has totally changed and he might not even realize how much he has changed to you.
In time, he will calm down some - so keep in touch, send the birthday card and Christmas card or whatever, but just give him space. It will take awhile to calm down and become real again.
I was there at that age…and yeah, I kinda burned a few bridges, but even if he were not Gay, friends do go off in different directions - so maybe it is time to just kind of let things go and maybe someday you will reconnect again.
Oh, and I personally find nothing wrong with having sex often, and more often, with lots of people, not a horrible thing - as long as he is being safe and doesn’t go off the deep end with danger junkies or other fringe elements. I think even most straight guys are somewhat jealous at how often and easily Gay guys can score and wished they had that same opportunity. The slut phase does eventually go away and that is when guys (like me) eventually see there is more to life than just hundreds of one-night-tricks and start searching for a real partner.
My SO of 32 years, and I, were both proverbial sluts in our youth. We have no regrets from those days, and if anything I think it has made it easier for us to stay together over all these years because we didn’t/don’t feel like we were missing anything by becoming a couple.
Ah youth…chances are I would know your friend if I were his age, at this time, in his neighborhood - and chances are equally good we would remain friends for years afterwards. My SO and I are both still good friends with many guys we had short or long-term relationships with back in the day - and their partners are just as accepting of us today. Rite of passage and not at all that uncommon - at least in our realm of friends.
Also, this is a fact that many young people have a hard time coming to terms with.
Friends come and go. Even ones you’ve been friends with for a long time. I know in my college years I had friends that I could have thought were going to be my friends until the day I die.
Nope. The fact is people are constantly growing and changing. Especially in there 20’s. And sometimes that growth leads you in different directions.
My gut tells me that you two are growing apart. Even if your friend does come back to the middle, it probably won’t work. You know the saying: You can never go home again.
And once again I see someone making up a story so they can hate on someone. Nothing you said is in the OP. You made it up so you could disagree with everyone else.
Yes, being sarcastic is the opposite of being nice. Having a friend hit on a former friend may not be your fault, but a nice person does express regret that it happened, as a nice person doesn’t want his new friends to hurt his old friends. Being nice means caring about the feelings of others.
You do in fact owe your friends a lot if you want to remain friends. All relationships are about give and take, and friendship is a fairly strong relationship. If you want to view it dispassionately, friendship is an exchange of obligations for certain amenities. You owe your friends what they owe to you: friendship. Otherwise you aren’t their friend.
Your post is far more assholish than anything the OP has done. It’s better than the other friend, sure, but only because he specifically asked for advice. It was needlessly harsh and involved assuming the worst of the person you were talking to. It’s all about putting someone down so that you can feel better about yourself.
You want my advice? Don’t just dissociate quietly. Be sure to let him know you are doing it and why. It may be a bit more assholish, but it would be irrational for you to expect change without telling him what needs to change.
I’ve lost friends for reasons I think were about me being a jerk, and I’ve lost friends who told me what was wrong. I’ve more often wound up still being friends with the others. In my opinion, another part of friendship is owing each other an explanation for leaving. Not giving one further burns bridges you may not want to burn.
Especially since he’s most likely to see you leaving him as it being because he’s gay, since that’s the most important thing in his life right now.
You’re talking to a guy who made it through life having no more than a handful of people who hated him, until he came to this board. A lot of people on this board think I don’t know what I’m talking about or that I “think funny,” but it worked pretty well for me for 23 years.
Maybe he didn’t like being an introverted, awkward, asexual, nice guy. And while you remember him as a good friend, he likely only remembers his former self was constantly picked on and ostracized and constantly feeling like he’s failing as a human being. He wants to get as far away from that weak and vulnerable person.
I was (and still am) a nerd. And I hated it. It wasn’t so much that being a nerd was bad. It was that I didn’t choose it. I tried very hard to be a “normal” person with a “normal” social life, but most of my efforts resulted in me embarrassing myself terribly. The worst thing was that it seemed everyone thought I deserved to be ridiculed. It felt like I was being punished for not knowing how to act around others and therefore I deserved their mistreatment. If I could just figure out what everyone else knew, I could be well liked, but I didn’t know. And because it seemed so easy for them, I could only deduce that there was something terribly wrong with me, that I was simply not as “good” as other people.
I dealt with it by dropping out of the social scene. Sometimes I wish I could be part of it; I feel like I’m missing a lot out of life. Your friend must have the same yearning to be included in the social scene. He’s not going to see the drawbacks of it for a while. After all, a starving Ethiopian doesn’t worry about dying from clogged arteries.
I hope this helped give you insight on why he might want to change. I’m sorry I can’t give you more direct advice.
If you really were his friend and not some user, you should be able to go eat with him.
REAL friendship, as distinct from CONVENIENCE friendship is unconditional.
If you are determined not to even socialise with him, what is the point of this thread?
She should, IF he were really her friend and didn’t say and do things that made the experience odious.
This outlines a position so extreme as to be ridiculous. If a friend starts exhibiting behavior like kicking you in the groin every time he gets a chance, or coming over to your home with some buddies and gang-raping your daughter/sister/mother, would you continue to consider him a real friend? I think not.
Even a casual reading of the OP’s posts here makes it clear she did not come here determined not to socialize with him. She came here for insight and advice on how to deal with behavior that was quite different from what had been the norm for many years.
Taking the OP at face value, you’re not being intolerant at all. There’s nothing going on here that’s particularly relevant to him being gay. I’ve known people who were straight and sexually repressed, let loose, and swing wildly to the other side and will have sex with anyone that’s willing. It’s not an uncommon reaction to bottling up for so long to over-compensate with the other extreme.
And that he finally came out, and that he hadn’t told you, I wouldn’t think too much about that aspect either. I don’t have any friends that have dealt with that, but maybe he was lying to himself to some extent, or afraid of what might happen if he had told one person and it had gotten out.
That said, the fact that what was apparently a major issue for him was something that he didn’t share with you may well mean that the person you became friends with isn’t the same person he is now. There may well be no trust there because he just didn’t trust anyone and, at this point, he’s inclined to trust, not those people who knew him all along and accepted him, but those who embraced and encouraged his new life.
Again, this isn’t terrible uncommon either and I’ve seen it with other major life-changing decisions, like religious conversions (including to/from atheism), political belief changes, etc. People who were part of their lives before, even if they still love and accept them, will be see as reminders or baggage. They may well interpret a plea for moderation as an underhanded attempt to restrain them or as disapproval of their choices. It’s easier just to insert oneself in the new circle that defines these choices and, unfortunately, it will tend to mean over-indulgence and extreme changes.
For you, you clearly still care for your friend, but you have to take care of yourself too. Maybe the person you knew is still there and he’s just at the extreme now and will settle back somewhere a lot closer to what you remember once he’s got the repression out of his system. Or maybe he loves his new lifestyle and is a completely different person. Only time will tell, but it’s not really fair to you to wait around forever and see what happens. If you’re patient and willing, by all means, wait. But if it becomes a burden, do what you need to do. It’s also likely that, though he’ll drive away old friends now, if and when he returns to a more moderate lifestyle, he’ll want to reconnect with people. But, really, if the friendship is hurting you, just back off, give him the room he needs to sort his stuff out and the room you need to take care of yourself and re-evaluate it when things change or when more time has passed.
Honestly, this sort of perspective is frightening to me, that people think this way. Yes, love is unconditional, and real friendships have love, but there’s a difference between being someone’s friend and tolerating harmful relationships. Sure, plenty of times love means holding someone’s hand and bearing their burden with them, sometimes it means turning them loose to learn their lessons the hard way, and sometimes it means knowing when the relationship isn’t serving the two of you anymore and going your separate ways. Even bringing an end to the relationship doesn’t necessarily mean you stop loving that person; in fact, if it’s not serving the two of you to remain friends, it’s the exact opposite.
From my own experience, I have a friend who was continually making terrible decisions. I would be there to comfort this friend and advise against these decisions, it would make this friend feel better, but never learn from the results and it was a vicious cycle. Eventually, I had to essentially severe contact, and it hurt like hell to watch my friend suffer, but without me being there to hold this friend up and forced to face the full consequences of the decisions being made, finally hit bottom, and got out of the crappy situation. Afterward, we reconnected as good or better friends than we had been before.
I don’t know enough about the situation the OP is in, but it wouldn’t surprise me if the friendship of the OP is in a similar situation. The friend is making some poor decisions and stretching on old friendships to enable bad decisions and won’t really realize how bad of an influence some of these new “friends” and promiscuous behavior actually is until it might be too late to repair the damage. It very well may be that being there and providing that emotional support, while in the short terms makes the friend feel better, is ultimately just enabling long-term destructive behavior, but only the OP can really judge that.
If I am reading it right, the guy that tried to sleep with her boyfriend lives there, so dining with him at his house would be awkward.
My partner’s son came out a few years back and became a pretty obnoxious mincing slut. He was like a gay caricature and it was painful to watch. He hadn’t been repressed or anything, his mum is a lesbian, he just took a while (and a very bad marriage) to figure it out. Fast forward a few rocky years and he is a nice normal bloke in a loving relationship with another nice normal bloke and he has completely stopped the painful lisping and dahlings and racing off to the men’s toilets with random strangers when out with his mum for the evening.
Coming out can be as stupid as going through adolescence again, leave the door open for him but get on with your life. He may just wander back through it but for now he is as lost to you as most teenage boys become to their mothers when the hormones kick in.
So here’s how I see it, filtered through a few conversations I’ve had with a trans friend about his mental state over the last few years.
Your friend has spent a very, very long time being another person and acting the way he imagined was “right” or “normal” to act.
Coming out didn’t magically fix all of that - he just snapped to a different point along the “who am I and what am I doing here?” continuum. He’s still playing a role. He’ll figure it all out eventually, but it’s going to take time and a certain amount of self awareness and introspection.
Having said that, you have no obligation to make yourself a martyr on his account. Have a talk with him, let him know that you love him and approve of him and want him to be happy, but that he’s hurting you and you can’t be friends with someone who hurts you. He’ll come around eventually, or not, but that’s ultimately up to him.
Thank you so much for this. This has been very insightful. 
I will have to figure out some way to do this tactfully…which isn’t always a personal strong suit. I definitely don’t want him to think that I am stepping back because he’s gay. Not because of how it’ll make me look, but because I don’t want him to make some sort of connection early in the “coming out” game that even self-proclaimed accepting/ally straights can’t be good, well-intentioned friends. I definitely think you’re on to something. I definitely don’t want to treat him like a child, and perhaps saying something gently might be a way to show that i consider us equals. It’ll be a hard path to navigate, though.
Very true. (And thank you for the analogy!)
You’re way off the mark. I definitely get what you’re saying, but we totally socialize. We still go out to eat together. I simply meant that I won’t go to HIS apartment because I don’t want to risk running into his roommate. I don’t want to risk causing a scene. I am not good at playing nice with people who are mean or disrespectful to me. I have no issue meeting my friend at my place or going to a club or to a buffet, etc.. I just won’t go to his place. In fact, my friend and I work together. (I got him his current job, as I mentioned in an earlier response.) We socialize, it’s just that the frequency and quality of those interactions has diminished dramatically.