A couple that my husband and I are friends with very recently broke up because of infidelity on the part of the husband. I’m anticipating what’s going to happen at the next gathering our group of friends will have and I’m trying to formulate a game plan.
Here are the (to me) relevant details: The affair has been going on for two years, with a woman that both of them were friends/business associates with. The husband did not confess and intended to keep the affair a secret. The wife found out because something he did made her “ears prick” a bit and she confronted her husband. They have two children and the husband has spoken to them once since he left (a week ago). He says he’s in love with the new woman and intends to continue his relationship with her. My husband grew up with the guy and is friends with him, but not on a best-buddy level. I met both of them at the same time, but I’ve gotten to know her better because we have children the same age and do stuff with just us and the kids.
Our group of friends is made up of guys my husband grew up with and their spouses. If we socialize with them, there’s a good chance the adulterer will be there (but not his wife). How would you react to this? Would you stay to hang out with him and have a few beers? What if he brings the new woman?
My plan, I think, is to stay if he’s there by himself. I think that part of being a friend is to help a person navigate out of mistakes when they’ve made them. I would definitely voice my opinion that he should get counseling or in some way try to fix his marriage. If he brought the new person, though, I think I’d have to leave (and I mean in a non-dramatic, quietly thank the host kind of way). To me, socializing with them as a couple would be sending the signal that I consider their relationship to be legitimate and socially acceptable - which I don’t. This could all be irrelevant because the group of friends is made up of couples who are religious Catholics who are also very marriage and family-oriented. I would not be surprised if the other woman was not made welcome in their houses.
Am I being unreasonable? What would you do or have you done in this situation.
Strictly from my personal point of view, and without intending to dictate to others, this is my take on the situation.
I am a committed Christian. If I desired to socialize only with people who lead sinless lives, well, that would be a very sparsely attended party. In fact, I couldn’t be there myself.
To forgive someone is not to condone his sin. If it were, God would forgive none of us.
In the past, I have more than once fallen into seriously sinful situations. No, come to think of it, “fallen” isn’t accurate. I took a flying leap into seriously sinful situations. I thank God that my true friends did not write me off as a hopeless cause. They waited patiently by the side of the pit that I’d dug for myself, letting me know that once I was ready to come out, they were ready to throw me a lifeline.
I agree with you…sort of. I don’t think you (the general “you”) should stand by your friends when they screw up - I think you should help them navigate out of the screw-up. I don’t think that friends should be abandoned when they make a mistake, but if it wasn’t a mistake, but rather a choice…what then? What if this isn’t a case of a good person who has done a bad thing, but a bad person who is making who he is clear? I’m not sure which it is at this point.
Also, I don’t think in this situation that it’s my place to forgive. He didn’t “sin” against me and the people he did hurt have not been offered any sort of apology or anything. He has made no attempt to “atone” and it doesn’t seem like he will.
Just to offer some more information (because I can imagine someone may accuse me of being a hyper-religious, moralizing person), I’m not religious at all.
If you have never made a mistake, been unkind, acted selfishly, gossiped, told a lie or neglected the starving and homeless of the world, by all means shun this woman!
But if you are a human being who values love, forgiveness, and mercy, then set all judgment about her aside.
Treat the woman as you would want to be treated if you had become involved in a situation that was unpleasant and humiliating. Kindness to all concerned is appropriate – the three adults and any children involved.
It is no one else’s place to judge or criticize because no one else can know the whole story from the inside. Things are not always what they seem. Do not offer unsolicited advice.
Had to check that word repeatedly to make sure I got the right number of “er”.
Speaking as a guy, I’d let him know with little subtlety that what he did was not cool. I wouldn’t shun or avoid him, but I’d let him know how I feel. Cheating on your s.o. when you have kids and trying to keep it a secret is wormy. Doesn’t matter how long it’s been going on or whether or not you “love” the person you’re cheating with. The man acted like a punk and deserves to be told, not to mention get hosed in the divorce proceedings.
Don’t write him off, but don’t let him off either.
It sounds to me from your discription that the guy fell in love with another woman and tried to maintain two households. It is stupid, yes. But human’s are stupid beings.
Is he an “adulterer”? Yeah, probably, but so was Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan, John Wayne, Newt Gingrich, etc. ect. ect. Should he “atone”? Not up to me. My friends are my friends, I don’t call for atonement for falling in love with the wrong person second or first. I have enough trouble keeping my own life in line without worrying about there’s.
In my world there are no “good people” who do bad, or “bad people” who show their true colors. They are just people - flawed, stupid screwer-upers.
In my mind it’s not up to you to forgive. You weren’t the person “sinned against”. I think a Jewish fellow in the Middle East once broke up the harrassing of a woman who did much the same as your male friend and told the people who were about to stone her for her escapades and lack of atonement that they should just…well, I think you get the allusion.
Thank you Zoe, these are my feelings exactly, (especialy the last paragraph).
YOU know, I got shuned by a couple of my long time friends when I divorced my wife because they got the false impression that I was hitting her. Now all the sudden my so called “good friends” were ready to label me a wife beater at the drop of a hat. That really fucking hurts when you think you’ve got good friends like that; then they just drop you like nobody’s business.
Do you do background checks on all your other friends? How do you know you aren’t already socializing with someone who cheats on their taxes or kicks ugly puppies or whatever?
Friendship isn’t about holding others accountable to your standards. You’re uncomfortable with the situation, but that’s your baggage; you have no inherent right to go off on the guy or shun the new girl. You also don’t have to stay friends, socialize at all or anything else, but the pious tone of ‘helping them see the error of their ways’ stinks 9 ways from Sunday.
Sure, you’ve got every right to voice your opinion, but if you think the guy in question hasn’t thought the situation thru, hasn’t already considered counseling or if he wants to save his marriage, that’s nuts. Either he’s too stupid to consider these things in which case he won’t understand what you’re on about, or he’s already done the normal agonizing people do in situations like this and won’t appreciate your telling hiim what he oughta do.
What good will come out of it? If you quietly refuse to accept her, will he leave her and go back to the wife and live happily ever after? If you tell him off, then what? He’s going to do what’s right for him, regardless, so how’re you and your spouse and he supposed to continue your friendship after the chastisement?
I never said anything about chastisement or telling anyone off. I actually also never said anything about dropping him as a friend. But, are you all really saying that you’d go to a dinner party with a group of couples, except now there’s suddenly a new replacement for one of the spouses - and that you’d sit there and pretend that nothing’s happened? I guess this is sort of what I’m getting at. To me, just going along with the program, drinking my wine, and making jokes just like everything is how it always was is giving the impression that I think that what he did is okay. I’m not under the impression that he would actually care what I think, but isn’t there some sort of responsibility we have as members of a community to uphold some sort of standard?
In case anyone is under the wrong impression, I would never be rude to him or her. I would never intentionally make either of them feel like they should leave some sort of party or anything like that. I’m basically talking about me giving up socializing with this group, not him.
I guess I’m not one of those who thinks anything anyone does is okay. Yes, I’ve made plenty of mistakes and I’m far from perfect, but I would never, never, never do what he has done, especially in the incredibly destructive way he’s done it. I think there do need to be some lines drawn. I’ve been spending a lot of time with the wife this week trying to help her pick up the pieces. The fact that she can’t even call the doctor because she’s sobbing uncontrollably I guess is coloring my outlook on the whole situation.
No, I don’t think you’re being unreasonable. Personally, I wouldn’t associate with him even without the other woman. We’re not talking about a one-off screwup, here. We’re talking about a deliberate, ongoing deception, and that’s just not cool. I can’t like or respect someone who has it in him to treat someone like that, and I don’t socialize with people whom I neither like nor respect. I’m not saying I think he should be stoned for what he’s done, but neither do I think we should pat him on the head and tell him that anything he wants to do is fine by us.
Well, yes. Actually, I’d probably go out of my way to be welcoming to the new chick, she’ll be the one not getting years of in-jokes with the crowd, etc.
Either that, or it’s like CrazyCatLady said. If you no longer like or respect him, why be friends? If you’re still going to be friends, you have to get over it.
Upon further reflection, hanging out with him but not his girlfriend really isn’t a tenable position. That makes it look like you’re placing all the blame for this on her shoulders, and while she treated his wife every bit as badly as he did, she’s not the sole villain here. She didn’t make him have an affair. She didn’t make him tell his wife an ongoing pack of lies and bullshit. She didn’t make him only call his kids once in the week he’s been gone. That was all him, so if you’re going to not associate with them as a couple over your disapproval of his behavior you have to not associate with him at all.
I “lost custody” of “our” friends when I got divorced a couple years ago. There was no adultery nor any abuse (on my part), but the key is that she had their ears just as the wife in this case has had your ear. I guarantee you that there is another side to this story and that everything is not how you think it is.
To answer your original question, I think you should avoid socializing with the husband and his girlfriend altogether. Your OP indicates that you have already judged them, and harshly, so the social event couldn’t possibly be enjoyable for you or for them. I don’t know whether you would try to influence others from your social circle to likewise shun them, but I hope not.
I don’t see how you have a leg to stand on here. You want to be able to associate w/ the guy when he’s alone but not when he’s w/ the new woman. So, you are shunning a relationship rather than a person. It makes no sense. It’s like declaring a war on drugs or a war on terror.
Respectfully, that was a silly thing to say. In fact, it was a Crime Against Logic. If you’re too emotional to even think straight about the issue, then you need to cool off before you do something you regret.
Having been on both sides of the cheating fence, why do you think you can stand in judgement of his behavior? While you are hearing all of the pain of his wife, I’ll guarantee you there are two sides of this story. I’m not condoning his behavior. Cheating is wrong but he certainly doesn’t have to answer to you for his bad behavior.
If you wish to maintain him as a friend, you must learn to accept him and his chosen partner without malice or judgement. If you do not wish to “associate yourself” with a sinner, then you have to walk away.
And before we go writing the guy a pass on this, I thought I would bold what I think is the key part to this whole sordid affair.
The affair went on for two years and husband intended for it to go on longer. A one night stand fling is at least a little understandable. This went on for two years and he never told her. That makes his side of the story entirely irrelevant. There is no side that can justify cheating on his wife for two years and really never intending for her to find out.
Fine Harborwolf, it went on for two years, he’s scum. It’s still not the OP’s place to stay friends with him but not condone his actions, to never be rude to him but quietly leave anyplace he shows with the new her, to be the arbiter of community standards for their group, whatever.
Frankly, two years or five years or one night, how bad is Bad only matters in how it affects C3. If she can’t see him as friend anymore but only as ‘guy who hurt my other friend with his evil deed’ then she needs to not be hanging around him, period. Go ahead and tell him why, too, if she’s dropping him as a friend he’s at least got a right to know why.
I can’t see much valid middle ground. No, it’s not like you can’t ever tell a friend they’re wrong, sure you can. This isn’t like he slipped up and told a racist joke and you yell at him and he either stops or refrains from telling them around you, nothing he can do now is going to change what has happened. I still can’t see any good coming out of sitting in judgement on him but trying to remain his friend.
Once all the drama is over, he’s still going to be those kid’s daddy. You’re still going to run into him at birthday parties and graduations and all that, it’s going to be pretty hard on the kids if everyone acts like their Dad is a pariah.
No, it doesn’t make his side of the story irrelevant. Neither you nor the OP are privy, so far as I know, to the intimate details of the married couple’s relationship. The OP has heard one side of it from a hurt, angry woman. That hurt, angry woman most likely believes that what she has been telling the OP is nothing but unvarnished fact. But, you know hat? There is still another side to the story.
I sought divorce because my wife made my life intolerable. As I remember life with her, she was ill-tempered, bitchy, and sharp-tongued. She treated me as if I were a not-very-valued employee rather than a spouse. Our house was like living in a museum because of her obsessive-compulsive cleaning (1:00 AM vacuuming, anyone?) and any item being out of place would provoke an angry tirade. And these were the good qualities of our marriage.
During the divorce proceedings, she gave her side of things. Of course, that wasn’t how she percieved things at all. She saw herself as a loving and supportive wife who kept a clean home for her family. She was never ill-tempered, nor did she ever speak to me in anything but the most dulcet tones. I’m not saying she’s a liar, either. She honestly believes her version to be how things were, just as I believe mine.
Don’t believe that there is only one side to this or that only one side is relevant. That isn’t the case.