Am I enlightened?

Great Debates
202

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Why don’t you consider yourself worth of respect, is it because you don’t respect all life? Without experiencing it, this is very hard to understand, you are a part of all life as Jill could clearly see in her experience. I am not sure enlightenment can be explained in words, it can only be felt.
[/quote]
I didn’t say I don’t consider myself worthy of respect. I said I didn’t consider myself automatically worthy of respect. Respect is earned, in my opinion, not gifted on a general basis. I may respect many forms of life, but I don’t repect them just because they are life.

Well, you would say that, given the amount of times you have professed to understand the way the universe works in certain terms. I’m all too happy to admit I could be wrong and that enlightenment as you believe it to be is true. You’re the one who refuses to accept - even humour - other explanations.

203

[QUOTE=goodie]
P.S. If any of you are wondering, I haven’t smoked pot for about 10 years, what with Motherhood and everything, when these kids are grown and out of the house, I’m going to go nuts, self awareness and enlightenment be damned.
[/QUOTE]

I really enjoyed your posts, thanks. :slight_smile:

204

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
I didn’t say I don’t consider myself worthy of respect. I said I didn’t consider myself automatically worthy of respect. Respect is earned, in my opinion, not gifted on a general basis. I may respect many forms of life, but I don’t repect them just because they are life. Well, you would say that, given the amount of times you have professed to understand the way the universe works in certain terms. I’m all too happy to admit I could be wrong and that enlightenment as you believe it to be is true. You’re the one who refuses to accept - even humour - other explanations.
[/QUOTE]

Depends on the explanations, some water is clear, some not so much.

205

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Depends on the explanations, some water is clear, some not so much.
[/QUOTE]
Given that that it is tricky to see through some water, isn’t it also reasonable to assume at least some doubt in even things we think are obvious? A clear river will let you see the bed much more easily than a muddy one - but the refraction of light will mean the bed may be further or closer than it actually appears.

I’m not saying we avoid holding on to an idea. We shouldn’t doubt so much that we never hold anything to be true. But in an area in which we think there’s considerable chance of being wrong, in which others have all too easily gone astray - it only makes sense to accept, even if only in part, the chance we could be wrong. To not do so is to deny the very founding principles of our belief.

206

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]

I agree with what you said. As we go along moment to moment we make choices that alter our course and alter to some degree who we are at some level. My experiences and choices, both good and bad, have led me to who and whereI am today.
I understand your aversion to the popular meme about the real us and I admit, I’ve bought into that to some degree. I always disliked the concept that we’re not worthy but God loves us anyway, so I tried to look at it differently. as in We are working toward our potential. A journey of self discovery. I’ll have to start looking at it differently now.
How does our potential and the desire for growth fit into your thoughts on this. We are the person we are right now. Does the desire to improve and grow mean we aren’t happy with who we are? What does recognizing flaws and problems that need to be addressed mean about the real me?

I find it interesting that your approach seems to be a very in the moment one. I’m the me I am now. A thought occurs that I want to change something and I act on it. Acting on it is a slightly different me, and when I’ve changed something about myself that new me is still me, even though I’m not the same as I was.
I don’t find that very different or in conflict with a lot of spiritual teachings. It is different from quite a few that remain superficial IMO. Religion that separates us from each other and worships a disconnected God who is out there somewhere ruling the universe needs to be upgraded IMO.
[/QUOTE]

In my own experiences, and the places/times/conversations where attempting to eff the ineffable has seemed to allow communication even though words don’t really work except to talk around the issue, the agreement tends to be this:
that there IS no real ‘me’ other than the collection of useless detritus that the OP was referring to as ego.

The lower level accessable through drugs or meditation or flashes of clearness (the ‘love’ or ‘wisdom’ referred to earlier) is the base self of the universe- and ANYTHING that comes from any current incarnation (ie; physical self) is what the attempt is to avoid.

The feeling of being part of a larger organism, being one with the universe, is due to the fact that when we can clear ourselves (and it hasn’t happened often, with me- I tend to think that the closer one can get to maintaining that view is what is referred to as enlightenment) we are accessing not just our individual true self, we are accessing the only true self that exists in the universe. There is only one, and it is yours and mine and the bee on the flower’s and the flower itself.

To put it another way- If you could clear yourself entirely, and let go the clutter and the physicality for just a moment, and I could do the same, then that experience, all that is left, would be the exact same thing. The exact same base self of the universe. If Hitler had done it, his true base self would be the same thing.

Not the same kind of thing- I mean that I really AM you deep down, and my mom, and my dad- and every living thing ever, all at once, back in time, forward in time, throughout all space. There is only one self which is the universe, and the fact that the collection of self-replicating cells refers to itself as an individual is an error that the ‘self’ of the universe is attempting to overcome- in precisely the ways that have been described here. Only through denial of self - in the sense of an individual self- can one access the true self which is all the universe at once and combined.

There can be no ME in a fully actualized enlightened individual. There is no ‘I’ in that moment, and in English the closest it could be verbalized would be ‘we are us’- or to quote Heinlein- ‘Thou art God’.

That’s my two bits- I finally had to join as a guest, and I am probably gonna have to join for real after this. I have been lurking for a year or so.

Thanks for a great thread!

207

Some of you have touched on Buddhism, I don’t know anything about anything, but I seem to remember that there are 4 main paths to enlightenment there, work, love, brains, what was the other? I am a work/love person myself. I’m less like Jesus than anyone, but I believe he would have been, too.
gurujulp quoted Heinlein and it got me to thinking, loved the post, but I HATE Heinlein, sexism is fine in small doses, but his brand really gets under my skin, I know that the quote used isn’t sexist, but it makes me ask, can one be considered enlightened if you hold any prejudices? Any opinions of others or things that are based on or re-inforced by visceral or aesthetic reactions? For instance could you say, I am enlightened and in tune with God and the universe, but I just don’t want to live near any micks?

208

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
I didn’t say I don’t consider myself worthy of respect. I said I didn’t consider myself automatically worthy of respect. Respect is earned, in my opinion, not gifted on a general basis. I may respect many forms of life, but I don’t repect them just because they are life. Well, you would say that, given the amount of times you have professed to understand the way the universe works in certain terms. I’m all too happy to admit I could be wrong and that enlightenment as you believe it to be is true. You’re the one who refuses to accept - even humour - other explanations.
[/QUOTE]

The reason to be mostly vegetarian and to respect all life as I understand it (at least as part of the Buddhist tradition), goes back to what I mentioned earlier- the only person you are harming when you harm another or kill for food is yourself- because deep down you are slowing your own evolution * as the universe * because you are not allowing the creature killed to progress towards enlightenment. Instant Karma, if viewed in the larger sense, 'cause the action actually is against yourself * as the universe*.

I do have to say why I never understood that eating plants was okay.

I get the arguement about it being acceptible for a village to share a single large animal (one life feeds many) and it is not okay for one person to consume an entire plate of shrimp(killing many to feed just one), but the plants are life too, right? Would that make eating a single squash better than eating a salad?

209

Lekatt:

The original OP raised the question of ‘am i enlightened?’ which leads on to ‘does it matter?’

For an individual? the answer is individual.

For our society - i think it is essential. Our species needs to evolve and the experience and fact of ‘enlightenment’ seems to point the way. Dr Jill’s experience seems to point to the fact that it is a search equally open to our scientists as well as our spiritual seekers.

The results? For the individual - they are infinite. For society - survival.

210

Mossdog, I respectfully disagree, I think evolution and enlightenment are inevitable, at least to some degree, not so much “needed” for survival. Does our species even need a “society” to survive? What do we “need”? I think we want these things very much, but do we need them? I want them as much as anyone else, I’m just asking.

211

[QUOTE=goodie]
Mossdog, I respectfully disagree, I think evolution and enlightenment are inevitable, at least to some degree, not so much “needed” for survival. Does our species even need a “society” to survive? What do we “need”? I think we want these things very much, but do we need them? I want them as much as anyone else, I’m just asking.
[/QUOTE]

I have to say that I agree. While individual ‘enlightenment’ is good to strive for, I think it is inevitable somewhere, somewhen, and so it doesn’t particularly matter whether everyone strives for it.

Or even ANY human. Heck, it may be that the hovering gnat community is constantly navel gazing and racking up an aggregate of hours in pure enlightenment that will (does?) eclipse the hopes of all humanity.

212

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
Given that that it is tricky to see through some water, isn’t it also reasonable to assume at least some doubt in even things we think are obvious? A clear river will let you see the bed much more easily than a muddy one - but the refraction of light will mean the bed may be further or closer than it actually appears.

I’m not saying we avoid holding on to an idea. We shouldn’t doubt so much that we never hold anything to be true. But in an area in which we think there’s considerable chance of being wrong, in which others have all too easily gone astray - it only makes sense to accept, even if only in part, the chance we could be wrong. To not do so is to deny the very founding principles of our belief.
[/QUOTE]

We hold true that which we have experienced more than once, plunging into the water, clear or no, and placing your hands on the bottom gives you the right to believe/know how deep it is. Belief and then knowing come only from experience.

213

[QUOTE=goodie]
Some of you have touched on Buddhism, I don’t know anything about anything, but I seem to remember that there are 4 main paths to enlightenment there, work, love, brains, what was the other? I am a work/love person myself. I’m less like Jesus than anyone, but I believe he would have been, too.
gurujulp quoted Heinlein and it got me to thinking, loved the post, but I HATE Heinlein, sexism is fine in small doses, but his brand really gets under my skin, I know that the quote used isn’t sexist, but it makes me ask, can one be considered enlightened if you hold any prejudices? Any opinions of others or things that are based on or re-inforced by visceral or aesthetic reactions? For instance could you say, I am enlightened and in tune with God and the universe, but I just don’t want to live near any micks?
[/QUOTE]

IMO it would not be possible. It wouldn’t even occur as an idea, I don’t think. Of course, we still haven’t tried to nail down the definition of enlightened.

In the moments of ‘clear’ that I have been able to achieve, no discrimination of any sort applies- everything is okay and everything is the same- all is one. That’s the point.

Not to say that I can hold on to that for long. When I am back to just me again, I still don’t like the taste of anise and I prefer to stay away from people who irritate me, among many other foibles.

When I am in the flash of what I would call enlightenment if I could retain the state, none of that matters.

214

[QUOTE=gurujulp]
In my own experiences, and the places/times/conversations where attempting to eff the ineffable has seemed to allow communication even though words don’t really work except to talk around the issue, the agreement tends to be this:
that there IS no real ‘me’ other than the collection of useless detritus that the OP was referring to as ego.

The lower level accessable through drugs or meditation or flashes of clearness (the ‘love’ or ‘wisdom’ referred to earlier) is the base self of the universe- and ANYTHING that comes from any current incarnation (ie; physical self) is what the attempt is to avoid.

The feeling of being part of a larger organism, being one with the universe, is due to the fact that when we can clear ourselves (and it hasn’t happened often, with me- I tend to think that the closer one can get to maintaining that view is what is referred to as enlightenment) we are accessing not just our individual true self, we are accessing the only true self that exists in the universe. There is only one, and it is yours and mine and the bee on the flower’s and the flower itself.

To put it another way- If you could clear yourself entirely, and let go the clutter and the physicality for just a moment, and I could do the same, then that experience, all that is left, would be the exact same thing. The exact same base self of the universe. If Hitler had done it, his true base self would be the same thing.

Not the same kind of thing- I mean that I really AM you deep down, and my mom, and my dad- and every living thing ever, all at once, back in time, forward in time, throughout all space. There is only one self which is the universe, and the fact that the collection of self-replicating cells refers to itself as an individual is an error that the ‘self’ of the universe is attempting to overcome- in precisely the ways that have been described here. Only through denial of self - in the sense of an individual self- can one access the true self which is all the universe at once and combined.

There can be no ME in a fully actualized enlightened individual. There is no ‘I’ in that moment, and in English the closest it could be verbalized would be ‘we are us’- or to quote Heinlein- ‘Thou art God’.

That’s my two bits- I finally had to join as a guest, and I am probably gonna have to join for real after this. I have been lurking for a year or so.

Thanks for a great thread!
[/QUOTE]

Good to have you here. Clear up something for me. I feel the Oneness, knowing I am a part of all things. Are you saying at some point I will lose my individuallity? I know there are different beliefs on this point, just would like yours.

215

[QUOTE=goodie]
Some of you have touched on Buddhism, I don’t know anything about anything, but I seem to remember that there are 4 main paths to enlightenment there, work, love, brains, what was the other? I am a work/love person myself. I’m less like Jesus than anyone, but I believe he would have been, too.
gurujulp quoted Heinlein and it got me to thinking, loved the post, but I HATE Heinlein, sexism is fine in small doses, but his brand really gets under my skin, I know that the quote used isn’t sexist, but it makes me ask, can one be considered enlightened if you hold any prejudices? Any opinions of others or things that are based on or re-inforced by visceral or aesthetic reactions? For instance could you say, I am enlightened and in tune with God and the universe, but I just don’t want to live near any micks?
[/QUOTE]

In my opinion, no, with the enlightened person there is one kind of person, human.

216

[QUOTE=Mossdog]
Lekatt:
The original OP raised the question of ‘am i enlightened?’ which leads on to ‘does it matter?’

For an individual? the answer is individual.

For our society - i think it is essential. Our species needs to evolve and the experience and fact of ‘enlightenment’ seems to point the way. Dr Jill’s experience seems to point to the fact that it is a search equally open to our scientists as well as our spiritual seekers.

The results? For the individual - they are infinite. For society - survival.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, enlightenment is for everyone equally, he who seeks will find. Sometimes, however, enlightenment may find us first, as in the experience Jill, and others have while dealing with trauma.

217

Lekatt:

Hugely important - and hence the validity of this original OP.

“Am I enlightened?” leads to “what does that mean?” and “does it matter?”

What does it mean to the individual? The answer is individual.

What does it mean to society - or even the human species? Survival.

So does it matter? Hell yeah.

This monkey needs to evolve if is to survive and progress to it’s potential.

Dr Jill’s experience shows that searching for an understanding of this possible next step is as valid a search to the scientist as it is to the spiritual seeker.

218

Hey didn’t mean to post similar thing twice - my last one didn’t show up in the thread so re-wrote - sorry! Now there’s a whole bunch of stuff and - as with my choice of clothes - i feel out of date …

219

Gurujulp

A very valid point. I believe true and “full” enlightenment is absolute. To use the definitions mentioned in Dr Jill’s experience; it would be full right brain experience and this can be attained and lived with truly remarkable results.

However, there is a left brain validity and a definite hear and now validity. I don’t think existence as a whole needs us or needs society but that is where I (left brain) live and exist.

The whole will keep rolling on and something will evolve which will go beyond this rather petty pinnacle we have reached. But I am happy to throw in my left-brain lot with us here and now.

The universe appears to be tending to a level of self awareness which we have the amazing opportunity to experience. To hold that fully in one’s own life is a worthy and fearful task. I personally (left brain again) draw back from the full task of full and complete enlightenment.

After effort and realization of the enormity of this task involved I respectfully drew back. ‘Yes’ through fear, ‘yes’ through weakness. A knowledge that these fears and doubts can be conquered is not the fact of conquering. A knowledge that doubt and fear are illusory does not necessarily overcome such doubt and fear. That is done through discipline and commitment which - so far at least - i am way too weak for …

Enlightenment is in a sense the easiest thing in the world. To retain and deserve it is task of remarkable commitment with astounding reward - go for it.

220

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Good to have you here. Clear up something for me. I feel the Oneness, knowing I am a part of all things. Are you saying at some point I will lose my individuallity? I know there are different beliefs on this point, just would like yours.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks!

I do not think that the physical being that just typed that question will ever entirely lose it’s sense of individuality, as I don’t think that even the most enlightened folk have entirely eradicated personality/self, but I do understand that is the goal.

Whether or not it is possible is something I am curious about. It may not truly possible or even desirable…

As OP stated, ‘ego’ and intelligence go hand in hand, and it may be that in order to achieve a high enough intelligent consciousness to desire enlightenment we need to have a complex enough sense of self to need to discard it. This would make it a rather difficult prospect to entirely eradicate that sense of individuality.

Personally, I really like that I have experienced that ‘clear’ feeling only temporarily. I kind of like being me, even though I am constantly aware of radical change in what I think of as me. I appreciate the separate specialness of myself as an individual even more for having experienced that.

I do wish that I could induce that ‘clear’ feeling easier, though. It comes rarely- and definitely not enough to keep me on the straight and narrow…

Which is why I am loving even typing about it. Folks I know in RL tend to look at me like a nutjob if I discuss this sort of thing, even though they can rationally discuss eating the body of Christ and transubstantiation like it is nothing…

221

I don’t know about including this whole “getting past physical suffering” thing with any kind of enlightenment. You can learn to disregard mental anguish, emotional stuff, but I say, feel your physical pain, acknowledge it, just try to be as useful as you can to yourself and others while it’s going on. I don’t know if it is worth the effort to try to ignore pains existence. But this is from a person who must alert relatives in 3 states if I so much as rip a fingernail.

But I guess I want to talk more about the possibility that freidah35 is any more enlightened than anyone else. Is self examination a crucial step to enlightenment? I don’t know anymore. I think it’s more about trying to stop re-shaping the universe to fit your needs and wants and trying to re-grow yourself into something that fits better into the universe. But, in a strange way, I think that to do this I need to learn more about the round hole that I am trying to fit into than the square peg that I am.

But you know, people change how they look at things, I thought I was a fount of wisdom at 16 when I wrote “Know Thyself” in black magic marker on my bedroom wall. Right next to my Abraham Lincoln quote and my picture of my boyfriend. I knew just about everything.