In fact, the mark of a good boxer is being able to think clearly while the bombs are going off around him.
davidw:
Good point. I’d agree that any inspiration strategywise is a boon to a boxer, but it’s kind of like when a quarterback makes up a play on the spot. It’s not really what he’s supposed to do, and more often than not it backfires horribly.
But, as you say, a certain level of improvisation is requisite in boxing.
My point was that when Mike’s initial strategy failed, his corner offered him nothing other than “go get this guy,” or “don’t stand outside.”
Mike needed to be trained with a couple of different tactics for getting inside and his head needed to be drilled repeatedly to the danger of standing outside.
I thought he strategically wasn’t prepared, nor did they have any alternate tactics. That’s his corner’s fault.
Yeah, I agree completely. It especially contrasted to how well prepared Lennox Lewis was by his trainer.
Personally, I don’t think the guy was strategically prepared for any fight he’s had in the last decade. Every time he came up against a guy he wasn’t able to just immediately beat into submission, he’s had major problems. They’ve been riding his physical abilities for a long time, now that he’s diminishing physically, his career is finished.
My $0.02. For what it’s worth, I used to be a fighter. Granted, most of it was full contact martial arts, but I did a little boxing as well.
Tyson was never a boxer in his entire career. Yes, he used to have more speed and agility than he does now, but he never used serious footwork, never really strategized and didn’t have much of anything resembling technique other than his incredible punching ability.
Tyson was a fighter, not a boxer.
The gods know there are both types in the sport, and they each have their advantages, but there’s almost no one in either camp that can cross the line from being one to becoming the other.
Tyson has always been on the hunt for respect. As such, he’s surrounded himself (particularly in the last few years) with respected staff and tried to become a boxer. He can’t. Tyson used to win by a combination of power, focus and - to put it bluntly - psycophathic rage that kept him from feeling the hits he was taking and kept him glued to the idea of driving his opponent’s nose into the brain.
He doesn’t have that anymore. He’s also older and slower and his style is so well known that competent boxers (such as Lewis) can plan, strategize and whoop on it.
Yeah, that too. I just thought of the ear thing first because it was more recent (at least I think it was). I think he should be permanently barred from the sport - but then, I think that about a lot of criminal/athletes.
I seem to recall that Marvin Hagler also had this same psychopathic rage and it served him well too for a while.
If the fight had just been a hitting contest ie Tyson stands there and allows Lewis one free punch, then Lewis stands there and allows Tyson one free punch and so on until someone falls down, then I think Tyson would have won. He’s got a devastating punch - he only got one or two good punches through but Lewis was cut and bruised, Lewis definately felt them.
However boxing isn’t just a hitting contest. Boxing requires:
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attacking ability - fast, hard punches
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defensive ability - able to dodge/deflect a punch or, worst case scenario, take a punch
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technique - the ability to use the above effectively
Tyson certainly has attacking ability, and he proved the other night that he can take a punch (Lewis hit him with some huge right hands).
His technique lets him down and he’s not too good at avoiding punches. It’s all very well being able to take a punch but it’s much better if you don’t get hit at all.
Basically he’s just not fast enough.
Maybe if he’d stayed with D’Amato he would have developed technique, who knows?
It annoyed me that Tyson was champ for so long because it showed a lack of quality in his opponents. He was a big hitter but a good boxer should have the technique to neutralise a big hitter. Lewis is the first guy he’s met who has the technique to overcome Tyson’s big punch.
Therefore Lewis is the better boxer despite the fact that Tyson (probably) has the harder punch.
If there’s a rematch, I think Tyson can only win if he can become quick enough to dodge Lewis’s jab and hit Lewis on the counter. Tyson needs to develop speed, he was probably too heavy for this fight and hence too slow.
Lewis is a big guy but this can work against him - big guys do have certain natural advantages (reach etc) but they also have certain natural disadvantages ie they are usually slower and get tired quicker. Tyson should use his short stature to his advantage and try to increase his overall speed.
He doesn’t need to work on his punch, his punch is fine. He just needs to be quick enough to manoeuvre himself into a position where he can use his punch.
Got a thread going and had to leave for awhile. Time to dredge up lots o’ thoughts.
Lots of people like to say Tyson is a fighter and possesses no technical skills, which is. bluntly, bullshit. Right now, yeah, he’s just a brute, but give the man credit for his prime: his bobbing and weaving reflexes were masterful. D’Amato made sure he would be a master at not getting hit, since there’s always danger coming in to fight inside a big man’s arms.
I have to say, though, I’m not sure if Tyson would have won had he stayed with Jay Bright or another D’Amato protoge. Traditionally, he has always had trouble with taller opponents. I think this was even mentioned in the post-fight gibberish. Lewis is such a safety-oriented fighter that many are beginning to consider this a flaw.
Lewis was fighting a pretty passive fight, as he usually does. Scylla was right about Lewis wearing Tyson down with his body weight and it takes a lot more energy to lunch forward with a hook than to jerk your head back four inches. Energy conservation is something Lewis was really good at in the fight.
Awesome, someone who knows the sport.
I’ve been boxing on and off for a few years now (the intervals aren’t filled with inactivity, but with some other martial art, FYI) so I’ve taken more hits than I want to as a University student with some pretty nice grades.
Anyways, I don’t entirely buy this. Yeah, Lewis messed up his game, but Tyson just got slower and slower until he just stood there and got hit. His third round looked like a rookie being taken into the third round. Drags his feet, lurches around, decides being sturdy is the best thing to do because it takes less energy than being elusive.
It boggled the mind, but then so much of the fight did.
What the hell was that lunging headhunting jab? Why did Mike content himself with simply walking and ducking into Lewis’ fists? * My* feet can take me side to side and backwards, as well.
I was hoping there was “I’m a boxer” somewhere between the lines.
I don’t know how to respond to this. I never claimed I could duel Lewis for a round and that claim doesn’t even have to be made for my statement to be valid.
Put me in a ring with someone in or slightly above my league and I can go full out on them for more than one round.
It’s like [sup]8[/sup]/[sub]12[/sub] being reduced to [sup]2[/sup]/[sub]3[/sub].
[sup]Tyson[/sup]/[sub]Lewis[/sub] reduced to [sup]me[/sup]/[sub]slightly better fighter[/sub].
Lately I’ve been trying to convince myself that math isn’t useless in my life. Anyways, give me an opponent who outclasses my skills as Lewis outclassed Tyson’s and I am 100% that I can go full out for more than one round. I’ve had many, many fights like this.
Tyson is a world championship contender with the money to pay for some of the greatest trainers in the world. He does not work, have a girlfriend (assuming - heh), does not go to school… he can spend so much more time training than I can.
Where does he get off dragging his ass so soon?
I still want to see Iron Mike go up against a real fighter. Who was it that challenged him to a no holds barred fight? Marco Ruas? Royce Gracie? I think it was one of them. According to Black Belt magazine IIRC Tyson pussied out of the invitation…
davidw, that, in my opinion, is the perfect definition of the difference between strategy and tactics. Anytime a boxer does spur-of-the-moment changes to his immediate approach, or shifts his punches to take advantage of an opponent’s weakness, that’s tactics. The game plan, the method prepared after hours and hours of his corner watching tapes of his opponent and coaching the boxer on how best to carry through long enough to beat his opponent, well, that’s strategy. It’s not the job of the boxer to think strategically. He climbs into the ring and changes his tactical approach from moment to moment, but he still sticks with the overarching strategy.
For example, Lewis stuck with the strategy of keeping Tyson on the outside, but changed his immediate tactics to account for Tyson’s predictable bob and weave.
Picky difference, yes, but I think it’s significant.
Tyson was easy to dodge. He flashes a little before he throws the uppercut, and you need to dodge in the direction away from the uppercut. If you do that, he lets his guard down and you can push up and give a 1-2 to the head by pushing A and B repeatedly to get stars. After you get stars, you can down him with your own uppercut by pushing start instead of the 1-2 combination to the head. Only problem is the uppercuts come quick and if he connects once, you go down and can’t get up.
Furthermore, did anyone notice that he has the exact same body as Tokyo Honda and Bald Bull? Except brown instead of yellow/white…
Rickson Gracie, but that’s completely inane. Rickson would kick his ass because all Tyson has ever trained for is boxing. All the disadvantages facing Tyson in that match-up would be just as enormous as the disadvantages facing Rickson in a Tyson/Rickson boxing match.