Prime Mike Tyson was about as close as you could get to an unbeatable fighter. He had lightning fast hands, great head movement, relentless pressure, and could knock you out with either hand.
Is there any fighter in history who you would favor over a prime Tyson? I’d say Vitali Klitschko. He was tall, rangy, awkward, had a granite chin, and had a high workrate for his size.
Wasn’t a lot of this covered in your previous thread? https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=854162
Iron Mike usually gets ranked top 10-20 in lists of all time heavyweight greats that I’ve seen on boxing forums, prob cracks the top 100 all time boxers.
There’s a bit of snobbery with it IMHO, as Tyson is the archetypal Best Fighter Evah! for the casuls so there’s some pushback against that from the cognoscenti.
Bottom line, though, is that Mike’s skills were indeed special, he was a fearsome fighter, but he beat next to no one of any standing in the game (in anything like their prime). There is NO WAY you can be considered in the top ten all time of heavyweight boxing, with its history as a marquee sport going back over 100 years, with a resume like that. Just not possible.
Tyson had one glaring weakness, if you ask me - he needed to feed off the crowd energy. The Buster Douglas fight was in Japan, and the crowd was dead.
Little Mac did countless times.
Tyson wasn’t that great. His record is based on weak competition. There’s no question he had incredible punching power, but he lacked stamina and focus. Many of the champions before and after him could have beaten him at his best when they were at their best.
Prime Ali could beat Prime Tyson. Ali could take a punch, as shown by Frazier and Ken Norton (Norton broke Ali’s jaw, but didn’t even knock him down, and Ali won the rematch) and he could be brutal (the Rumble in the Jungle, and Ali’s next match, where he reshaped Chuck Wepner’s face after Wepner knocked him down.)
And Tyson wasn’t invincible. Buster Douglas proved that.
True, Ali might have half-assed his way through a few fights. Tyson could surprise him in their first match. But Ali would win the rematch, the rematch after that, and all other rematches.
Agreed with you. Ali definitely win.
I’d take Tyson over Ali and Lewis over Tyson.
Ali over Tyson, but by decision. Ali had too hard a jaw for his own good, but he could have stood up under what Tyson would be able to land until Tyson ran out of ideas, then jab and grab his way to a decision. Ali couldn’t hit hard enough to drop a determined Tyson.
George Foreman over Tyson as well. Foreman had a good defense and a killer uppercut. It would have been bombs away for a round or two, and the first man to land solidly would win. But Foreman would push Tyson backward and force him to fight off the back foot, and Douglas and Holyfield showed that was the way to beat Tyson.
Also Dempsey over Tyson. It would have been like the Firpo fight, but Dempsey won that fight in two rounds and scored nine knockdowns along the way. Tyson could never stand up under Jack’s left hooks.
Joe Louis over Tyson, because Louis. Move Joe in time from the night he beat Schmeling, and Tyson is going down hard.
Also Jim Jeffries over Tyson, providing the bout was for twenty rounds like they used to do. Jeff had a head like a bowling ball, and he never got tired, and he was much faster than people give him credit for. Plus he was big enough to push Tyson around and beat him to the body. And his jab was harder than Ali’s right.
Tyson had the chance to be a great fighter, but he never got the chance. He stopped thinking he had to earn his knockouts by jabbing and setting things up, and just threw bombs and hoped for the best. Against ordinary fighters, it worked. Against a great fighter like Holyfield, or a fighter having a great night like Douglas, it didn’t.
Regards,
Shodan
I’d make the following odds on favorites:
Jack Johnson
Max Schmeling (the Schmeling that beat Louis)
Joe Louis
Muhammed Ali (the Ali that beat Foreman)
George Foreman (the Foreman that beat Ron Lyle)
Larry Holmes
Evander Holyfield (the Holyfield that beat Tyson twice, at his prime as a real heavyweight)
With the exception of Foreman, these were all exquisite boxers who would have no problem staying away from Tyson until the 4th round when he would run out of steam and then they would pick him apart. Foreman was basically a bigger version of Tyson, and a better fighter when he was in shape.
Even odds:
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Rocky Marciano
Sonny Liston
Joe Frazier
Riddick Bowe
Wladimir Kitchschko
and others
These guys were heavy hitters and tough guys who could have stood toe to toe with Tyson.
I’d fancy Tyson over Holyfield I think, prime for prime. Holy was a hard man (and a filthy fighter) who would never be intimidated, but that prime Tyson was skilled, disciplined and would overwhelm him IMHO - Holyfield wasn’t that big and my recollection is he got hit quite a bit on the inside and wasn’t shy about trading. I guess deep down the heart was never there with Tyson, but mid 80s Mike wouldn’t mentally fall to bits at a guy standing up to him (like he did when they eventually fought later on).
Prime Lewis takes Tyson pretty easy. I think Lewis is a little bit overrated (prob not a popular opinion, but he had the habit of fighting down to his opponent’s level), but he was too big, too skilled, and too chilled to be phased by Tyson. Although had they actually met IRL late 80s, which could have happened, Tyson would have waxed him given the different timescales of their respective primes.
When Holyfield finally fought Tyson he had finally become a heavyweight. You could see the difference in his joints, his elbows, knees, and shoulders. He wasn’t just a cruiserweight with puffed muscles anymore. Even when he first started as a heavyweight he was capable of giving Tyson a boxing lesson, but as you say he didn’t like to simply outbox his opponents, he wanted to knock them out. So early on Tyson might have tagged him. But the heavier more experienced Holyfield would never have a problem with him. That’s how I see it anyway.
I think one of the toughest tests Tyson ever faced in victory was the decision over Tony Tucker for the IBF crown. Tucker was a good, disciplined fighter than went the distance with Iron Mike without being knocked out.
I thought Tyson was terrific. Like a Pit Bull trained to walk on all four. Too bad he was complicit with Don King to turn professional boxing into All Star Wrestling credibility!:mad:
I would suggest George Foreman in his prime. Except for the Rumble in the Jungle outcome. :o
Check out the guy @ 31:46 with the gun in the ring. Security probably. But not the best way to carry!
I was 1 day shy of my 14th birthday and my Dad and I went to a movie theater to see a closed circuit broadcast of that fight. (That’s how it was done. Nobody around here had cable TV). We were certain Foreman would smash the living shit out of Ali, especially seeing what he did to Frazier and Norton who both beat Ali.
Personally, seeing it was the very end of the round, I don’t think the ref should have stopped the fight. Foreman did get up at 8 after all.
Great points but at his prime Tyson was SO intimidating he would have buzz sawed through Ali. There was frankly no one as aggressive as Iron Mike in Ali’s era. Maybe Frazier was tougher, but Mike, for a few short years, was an intimidating buzz saw.
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One more thing: in his prime, Larry Holmes would’ve schooled Tyson.
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Tyson destroyed Holmes. Yes it was an older Holmes, but he wilted under the assault.
No way he stands up to it in his prime.
Very good theory. If you watch Combat sports based in Japan, the fans rarely react until very dramatic moments.
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I was a fan of Holmes and thought he was a good role model as far as being a boxer could be.
But I strongly disagree with you here. Both in their prime I still would bet on Tyson. The only super hard puncher Holmes ever beat was Shavers and I think Tyson punched even harder and was faster and more determined.
Young George Foreman and maybe Joe Louis are the only 2 I’d bet against Tyson.
Almost 45 years later and it still floors me that Ali beat Foreman by outsmarting him. I’m not alone on this. Foreman was a heavy favorite to win. Watch the videos of him. He made other fighters his bitch!