I used to think the same thing. It was discussed in this thread.
Tyson is consistently overrated, IMO. He was definitely a great fighter, no doubt about it, but a lot of his victories were against good fighters but not necessarily fighters that will be remembered as the sports greats. He beat Larry Holmes in the late 1980s, which was well past Holmes’ prime and after he had taken a nearly 2-year hiatus from the ring. He crushed Michael Spinks, but Spinks just didn’t look like he wanted to be there to begin with, and I think that’s what was Tyson’s greatest attribute: his ability to win the psychological battle against his weaker opponents. He knew how to gain the psychological edge.
But Tyson struggled mightily once he got in the ring with taller, rangier fighters who could box: Douglas, Lewis, and Holyfield. He struggled with fighters with really good footwork and a solid left jab. We saw this with Buster Douglas, and later with Evander Holyfield. And it doesn’t matter that Holyfield beat Tyson during Tyson’s decline beause Evander Holyfield would have beaten Mike Tyson in 1991. The only reason he didn’t challenge Tyson earlier is that Holyfield wasn’t a natural heavyweight. He needed strength and conditioning to bulk up and take on bigger fighters, but had the game plan been to push Holyfield to fight Tyson in 1989 or 1990 instead of 1991, I don’t doubt Holyfield would have won.
Ali would have beaten Tyson. Listen would have beaten Tyson. And George Foreman in his prime would have absolutely destroyed Tyson. Even George Foreman at 42 might have very well defeated Mike Tyson at 22. Foreman’s sheer size and the way that he used his defense, the way he could take a punch, the way he could push fighters back, and the way he could just crush fighters with a single punch would have been a significant challenge for Iron Mike. Tyson was a brawler who beat up other brawlers, but Tyson couldn’t beat great boxers who could take a punch.
Meant Liston, not Listen. lol:o
Lewis beat Tyson to a pulp. As great a demolition job over multiple rounds as I have ever seen.
It a closer figbt in their prime, but Lewis still wins.
Holyfield has zero chance against Tyson in the prime. Holyfield is a jumped up light heavyweight.
Tyson does unto him what he did to Spinks.
This is just wrong.
Holyfield would have beaten Tyson in 1991 the same way he beat him in 1996. Offensively, he would have defeated Tyson with his superior boxing skills, particularly with his footwork, his angles, his jabs, his combinations. Defensively, he would have been as elusive a fighter and as devastating a counter-puncher as Tyson had ever seen up to that point. Holyfield also proved against Foreman that he could take a punch. Holyfield’s ability to withstand Tyson’s power would have been demoralizing, and Tyson would have become frustrated in later rounds at eating leather and not being able to respond in kind…which is exactly what happened the two times they eventually hooked up.
I get that people are enamored with Tyson’s power and they love the highlight knockouts, but Tyson wasn’t the same fighter against great boxers. And great boxers are usually going to beat brawlers - not always but more often than not.
Great thread, CastletonSnob. 
Yes, but not if he received that brown envelope. That’s what it took for Ali (Clay) to beat him. 
Ken Clean-Air System.
Easy.
I recently binged-watched a bunch of Rocky Marciano footage. He is just unreal how slippery and effective he is with stepping inside from out-of-range to crushing distance. He’s like Tyson, except with mystical 3-foot longer telescoping arms :D. Tyson would be chewing on Marciano’s gloves while windmilling at empty air.
Pre-comeback George Foreman is also an unreal unstoppable monster. The ring was shaking with those punches. “Felt that one in the crow’s nest!”
Just wanted to stop in and say I knew a dog, a miniature pinscher, named Tyson, for the boxer. His owner explained that when he was a puppy he liked to chew on the ears of his littermates.
Prime George, at the rumble, was 220 lbs at 6’ 3’'. Always surprises me that stat - not really all that big by modern standards, yet he was one of the most powerful men to ever lace the gloves up - a manslayer.
Like the Holmes v Tyson matchup, prime for prime - that’s a good one to envisage - could see wins either way if they fought a few times. Any all-time HW who can take Tyson past six or seven wins, let’s face it, and no doubt Holmes had the skill, chin and ringcraft to fight a defensive front six [he fought till he was 50 and is one of the most lucid and together old heavyweights you’ll see, so obviously he knew how to look after himself]. His prime was before my time but from what I’ve seen you’d not call him elusive or guileful, though - he shipped some huge shots in a few of his fights. Think Tyson would finish him at least a percentage of the time.
Holmes’ jab is legendary, but ISTM known more for its brutality than its poetry - he could knock fighters out with it. A very fast lateral-moving HW like Tyson would have some success slipping it and getting inside.
Nice compilation of Holmes punishing fighters with the jab here:
Tyson failed every gut check he ever faced. He didn’t like getting hit back, and he really didn’t like getting hit hard. I think Ali takes him, Foreman in his prime kills Tyson, also Evander Holyfield (a couple years before the ear biting thing), and Larry Holmes.
Larry Holmes is the only one I disagree with. I think Tyson could have defeated Holmes, and my guess is probably would have in, say, 2 out of 3 fights, and maybe all 3 - at least in Tyson’s tip-top prime, that is. At his very best, when he worked with Kevin Rooney, Tyson had excellent head movement, and he used his head movement to get inside on taller, less mobile boxers.
Holmes’ style was a better match for Tyson because Holmes’ tendency, even in his prime, was to jab and load up with the straight right. Most of the heavies, particularly after Ali, were just stand-up, load-up fighters and it was basically a contest of whoever could time better and punch harder. The contrast in styles that existed among the elite fighters of the 1970s disappeared for a while - until Tyson’s arrival in 1985. Tyson was the 1980s answer to Smokin Joe Frazier, but was naturally stronger and faster than Smokin Joe. Tyson cleaned out the division because he was unlike any fighter any of the established heavies had fought against, in terms of style and raw athletic ability. And of course, Tyson was just ferocious as fuck.
Tyson at his very, very best would have also stood a chance against Lennox Lewis for this same reason: Lewis was a great boxer, but his style might have been something a younger, more disciplined Tyson could have dealt with better than the later, less aggressive version that got destroyed by Lewis in 2002. It was clear after probably the 2nd round that Lewis was going to murder Tyson that night, and frankly, Tyson is lucky he didn’t get killed in the ring. That should have been his very last fight.
But Holyfield in particular would have given prime-time Tyson all he could handle and then some. What happened in 1996 and 1997 wasn’t a fluke; Holyfield systematically took Tyson apart, and if you hypothetically put, say, 1990-91 Holyfield against 1986-87 Tyson, I think Holyfield would have won in pretty much the same way. Tyson would have been the early aggressor but he would have quickly felt the taste of leather from Holyfield’s counter-punch combinations. Holyfield mastered pretty much every pitch, so to speak. He could knock opponents out with a straight right to the jaw, a left hook to the jaw or to the body (yes, he could knock out opponents with body blows). His left jab could snap heads back, and his upper cuts could take an opponent’s almost literally off. How George Foreman survived his mauling I’ll never know. Moreover, Holyfield’s footwork and angles would have given an aggressor like Tyson fits.
The rule you can never forget - Styles make fights.
Peak Ali and peak Holmes I’d back over a peak Tyson.
Ali did struggle with smaller guys who moved well and peak Tyson moved well and hit harder than Frazier and threw more often with more serious intent. But think of Tyson’s fight with James Smith. That is an idea of how things would go with Ali. He would frustrate Tyson and hold and tie him up a lot. But he had better footwork and faster hands than Smith and would have offered a lot more offensively.
Same thing with a peak Holmes. A peak, on his game, Holmes is a fighter I find hard to see losing to anyone. His fight with Tyson was the start of his comeback, Holmes was a stronger fighter later on in his comeback against guys like Ray Mercer.
Good call on Vitali.
I like a peak Foreman against Tyson. His size and power and general arrogance in the ring would have been something Mike didn’t like to have to deal with. I could see Foreman overcoming Mike in a bit of a slugfest. Ali was all wrong for Foreman, but not Mike.
Ridiculous. Tyson outweighed Dempsey by 40 pounds of solid muscle, and was faster. FFS, Tunney beat Dempsey.
“You think Tyson could beat me? He keeps talking his jive; he will go down in five!”
–Muhammad Ali, in my personal headcanon
I’m not so sure.
Willard outweighed Dempsey by *50 *pounds, most of it muscle, and was five inches taller.
Tyson was certainly fast, but no heavyweight’s ever been faster than Dempsey.
Dempsey was past his peak when he fought Tunney.
I haven’t given this a whole lotta thought but I will submit this: that as bad-ass as Mike Tyson was (or that I thought he was “back in the day”) I think a lot of his success came from simply intimidating other fighters (Michael Spinks certainly comes to mind - but I’m sure there were others who were scared just to step into the ring with Mike Tyson when he was still an unbeaten pro). “Buster” Douglas somehow wasn’t intimidated by him (granted, M.T. had a lot of things going on in his life back then that likely “un-focused” him from that fight) and once M.T. lost that aura of invincibility things just weren’t the same for him after that. Certainly Evander Holyfield showed that. But as for boxers from further back who could’ve beaten him. . .I certainly think George Foreman could’ve. Big George was every bit as strong as M.T. but he was bigger and George Foreman had an absolutely granite chin (although I saw just the other day a video of his win over Ron Lyle which shows that his chin was quite as granite as I thought it was - still pretty “granite,” though) and there’s no way in hell that he would’ve been intimidated by Mike Tyson. Even an “in his prime” Mike Tyson I think would’ve had all SORTS of trouble with Big George Foreman. And Muhammad Ali. That man was absolutely incredible. A young Ali would’ve run circles around Mike Tyson, no question about it. An Ali past his prime? Well, THAT Ali beat guys like Ken Norton, Joe Frazier, and George Foreman so I think he could’ve beaten even a “prime” Mike Tyson - but he probably would’ve taken a beating while doing so. Beyond that I’m not willing to speculate though I wonder what other people would’ve happened had a “prime” Mike Tyson taken on a “prime” “Smokin’” Joe Frazier? THAT would’ve been some battle, I think.
Yeah, there was definitely something a little “off” about that count. But I’ve always thought that Muhammad Ali did a brilliant job of defending himself against a terror that many people at the time thought would literally kill Muhammad Ali. Heck, I think even Big George acknowledges how special Muhammad Ali was.
In the thread I linked to in post #21 above, there is discussion of that. Refs have some say in counting out fighters who appear to be finished, even if they get to their feet in time. A poster in that thread claims that Joe Frazier was ringside at Zaire in 1974, and later expressed concern for Foreman’s well-being had the fight not been ended by the ref.
Tyson would have destroyed Ali. Ali was a genius who boxed with smoke and mirrors. I know he fought with a broken jaw. The same punch by Tyson would have knocked him out cold.
A washed up Larry Holmes lost by TKO to Tyson in 4. 1980 Larry Holmes would have beaten him.
Sonny Liston has a shot as well as 1970s George Foreman, a Tyson of his day. As well as Klitschko.
I think Tyson Fury would have at least gone the distance.
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