An open letter to the public about my noisy kids

[Shodan]

@MsWhatsit

One of the reasons that I think parents often get a little eye-rolly about advice proffered by non-parents is that most parents have gone through the experience of thinking they will parent a certain way, or that there is a right way/wrong way to handle a particular situation, and then having all of that knowledge updumped over their heads like a sack of rotten garbage when faced with a child who stubbornly refuses to comply with this parenting technique that you just know is supposed to work, goddammit. So you have to try something else instead until you figure out what does work. And you find that you are parenting in ways that you really never thought you would, because that’s what you have to do in order to turn your kid into a functional adult human being.

Nonparents, though they have had the experience of being a child themselves – and there is something to be said for advice given from that perspective – have not had this trash-dumping-over-head experience. So when they say things like, “Look, all you have to do in order to have X behavior is Y. I know this because when I was a kid, my parents did Y and I did X. It also works for my niece.” All you can do is shrug, because you know there are no umbrella solutions in parenting, but that knowledge comes from years of having your own attempted solutions dumped on your head like a trash can, and you can’t really replicate that for a nonparent arguing confidently in a message board thread.

More on topic, I don’t put up with my kids shrieking or throwing fits in public. I just have a really low tolerance for that, from my kids or anyone else’s. That said: If anyone asked me, I could offer advice about how to achieve this, but all I can tell you is what worked for my kids. It might work for yours, and it might not. I don’t presume to have all the answers about parenting, and anyone who does is full of shit.

This+about a million.

Seriously, Ms.Whatsit- this was awesome.

Regards,
Shodan

[suranyi]

@MsWhatsit

One of the reasons that I think parents often get a little eye-rolly about advice proffered by non-parents is that most parents have gone through the experience of thinking they will parent a certain way, or that there is a right way/wrong way to handle a particular situation, and then having all of that knowledge updumped over their heads like a sack of rotten garbage when faced with a child who stubbornly refuses to comply with this parenting technique that you just know is supposed to work, goddammit. So you have to try something else instead until you figure out what does work. And you find that you are parenting in ways that you really never thought you would, because that’s what you have to do in order to turn your kid into a functional adult human being.

Nonparents, though they have had the experience of being a child themselves – and there is something to be said for advice given from that perspective – have not had this trash-dumping-over-head experience. So when they say things like, “Look, all you have to do in order to have X behavior is Y. I know this because when I was a kid, my parents did Y and I did X. It also works for my niece.” All you can do is shrug, because you know there are no umbrella solutions in parenting, but that knowledge comes from years of having your own attempted solutions dumped on your head like a trash can, and you can’t really replicate that for a nonparent arguing confidently in a message board thread.

More on topic, I don’t put up with my kids shrieking or throwing fits in public. I just have a really low tolerance for that, from my kids or anyone else’s. That said: If anyone asked me, I could offer advice about how to achieve this, but all I can tell you is what worked for my kids. It might work for yours, and it might not. I don’t presume to have all the answers about parenting, and anyone who does is full of shit.

That was excellent.

[Learjeff]

@Cat_Whisperer

While you’re at it, CLee, you can explain to me why your decision to have kids should negatively affect me in public places.

Get a life. Being in public spaces comes at a certain risk for minor annoyances like having to be subjected to the lovely sounds of little kids enjoying life. And yes, the occasional awful cry – a sound that’s designed by nature to urge us to fix it as fast as possible. Please feel free to stick to rest homes and hospitals if you demand silence for your personal harmony. Sheesh!

There’s a big gray line here. There’s no doubt that there are parents who completely disregard decorum suitable for the space, and who need a clue or three. CLee does not sound one bit like those people. Furthermore, there are children with special needs. You may feel as though such children should be sequestered from the real world to avoid a minor annoyance to a few people, but I do not. Fortunately, it’s a free country, and special needs kids are allowed out in public despite your disapproval.

@MacTech

I have measured the decibel levels of screaming, shrieking kids (there’s an app for that, it’s a decibel meter) and found that the decibel range is typically 89-110 dB, threshold for hearing damage is 88 dB and is cumulative, the scale is logarithmic, every 3 dB DOUBLES the damage and HALVES the exposure time, a 91 dB noise is twice as loud as a 88 dB sound
So, please forgive me if I don’t share in your joy, it hurts my ears (literally)

Here are things ALMOST as loud as your joyful kid;
(Assuming a child with a healthy set of lungs capable of producing a 100 dB shriek)

Jet takeoff (at 1000 feet), outboard motor, farm tractor, garbage truck, very heavy Traffic, all 100 dB

If you’re going to bore us with the math, please at least get it right.

3dB is twice the power.
6dB is twice the amplitude.
Twice the volume is subjective, but generally considered from 6 to 10 dB, with 10dB being the more common usage.

Secondly, it doesn’t mean anything to measure an SPL level for a point source sound without giving the distance, since the sound decreases with the square of the distance. Are you one inch away? one meter? Somewhere in the same room? In the next yard? The numbers are hugely different depending.

Finally, have you calibrated your SPL app? If you haven’t, your numbers are only meaningful for comparison with other numbers from the same phone.

@MacTech

And just for comparison purposes;

.22 Long Rifle (subsonic); 130 dB
.22LR high velocity; 145 dB
.38 Special; 156 dB
12-gauge; 150 dB
.357 Magnum; 168 dB

At what distance?

@DrDeth

How do you stop your precious from squealing in delight at a upscale restaurant? By not bringing them there until they are old enough to not do it.

As a general rule, yes. Of course, there are exceptions. What do you want to be that CLee knows this?

[DrDeth]

@Learjeff

What do you want to be that CLee knows this?

What do I want to be? I dunno, the President of the United States? I used to say Astronaut. What does what I want to be have to do with this discussion?

Did you read the entire thread, including her reply to me?

Do you think that when we have a thread about “noisy kids” were talking about only her noisy kids?:dubious:

Don’t you think that some parents do bring screaming kids into white tablecloth upscale restaurants? :rolleyes:

[Learjeff]

@DrDeth

What do I want to be? I dunno, the President of the United States? I used to say Astronaut. What does what I want to be have to do with this discussion?

Sorry, typo. That was supposed to be “bet.”

Do you think that when we have a thread about “noisy kids” were talking about only her noisy kids?:dubious:

Don’t you think that some parents do bring screaming kids into white tablecloth upscale restaurants? :rolleyes:

I thought your comment was directed at CLee. If you’re just generally griping about parents who don’t pay any attention to what their kids are doing, I agree, but I think it’s beside the point of the thread.

I eat at a fair number of upscale restaurants and don’t remember this being much an issue. Occasionally, yes, but not enough to leave a deep impressions. That is, I’m sure I’ve experience it, but can’t remember the last time it happened, which might be more than 10 years ago. Perhaps it’s different where you live or the restaurants you go to.

I suspect it’s a bigger issue in the better restaurants in big hotels, than in fine restaurants in general.

[Learjeff]

In case anyone cares, here is the OSHA table for exposure permitted in the workplace, as a reference. It’s tricky to compensate for % exposure. For example, if the child is shrieking constantly (impossible) at 90 dB for 8 hours, that would exceed OSHA allowance. But if she’s only actually shrieking 50% of the time, that’s equivalent to 85dB, which is below the cutoff (but would drive nearly anyone nuts).

[Flying_Ghoti]

@CLee

My children have near zero control over their environments. The list of things they are not allowed to do is infinite, the list of things they want to do and are actually allowed to do is infinitesimal. They hear “no”, “don’t touch”, “you can’t”, “it’s dangerous” and all the variants all day long. They get away with very little. But they are encouraged to play, chatter, and laugh when and where it is safe to do so, and that includes stores which sell toys, restaurants which offer crayons, all public parks, and **every yard in the neighborhood. **

Can you please clarify this? Do you have permission to be in every yard in the neighborhood period, much less with noisy kids? This would really cross a line with me. I expect to have to deal with kids acting up in public places because I don’t get to decide who else goes to the supermarket or restaurant or park, but I do get to decide if I want to invite children onto my property (or at least I would if I owned property) and if some just showed up uninvited I’d be pretty pissed. In short, get off my lawn! You seem to be approaching this issue very reasonably and thoughtfully, so I find it hard to believe that this is what it sounds like. Maybe you’re really close with all your neighbors and they agreed to let your children play on their property?

[Learjeff]

@MacTech

Let’s say I took some hints from Batman and prepared for this eventuality, I reach into the handy Utility Belt, and grab two set of foam earplugs, hand a pair to my freind, we both put them in, give you a quick discouraging scowl, then turn back to our meal…

Lol.

I always carry a pair of etymotic ear plugs, one of the better $15 investments I’ve made. I’ve used them in many bars, but have never been tempted to put them on due to screaming kids.

But if the kids were that loud, I wouldn’t hesitate! Sorry that I don’t have a spare pair for you.

The problem is, that while they do reduce the volume, our ears and brains are so excellent at normalizing volume levels, screaming kids wouldn’t be much less annoying even with them on. Even shooting muffs (which reduce by 25 to 30dB) wouldn’t help as much as you might expect.

[CLee]

@Flying_Ghoti

Can you please clarify this? Do you have permission to be in every yard in the neighborhood period, much less with noisy kids? This would really cross a line with me. I expect to have to deal with kids acting up in public places because I don’t get to decide who else goes to the supermarket or restaurant or park, but I do get to decide if I want to invite children onto my property (or at least I would if I owned property) and if some just showed up uninvited I’d be pretty pissed. In short, get off my lawn! You seem to be approaching this issue very reasonably and thoughtfully, so I find it hard to believe that this is what it sounds like. Maybe you’re really close with all your neighbors and they agreed to let your children play on their property?

Making dinner, can’t respond to all. No, only in my yard, though in my neighborhood annoying noises (lawn equip) are a near constant in three of four seasons. If a lawnmower isn’t running somewhere it’s raining and the kids are indoors anyway. The *only *rule is/will be no shrieking or screaming. But whooping it up, laughing, or goofing around with the dog are encouraged. There is a reason we bought the biggest yard in the neighborhood instead of an apartment and a reason we are in a semi-country setting. Outside is what fun is for.

Like your name, by the way. Flyingfish

[Flying_Ghoti]

@CLee

Making dinner, can’t respond to all. No, only in my yard, though in my neighborhood annoying noises (lawn equip) are a near constant in three of four seasons. If a lawnmower isn’t running somewhere it’s raining and the kids are indoors anyway. The *only *rule is/will be no shrieking or screaming. But whooping it up, laughing, or goofing around with the dog are encouraged. There is a reason we bought the biggest yard in the neighborhood instead of an apartment and a reason we are in a semi-country setting. Outside is what fun is for.

This is very reasonable, thanks for clarifying. Your original post made it sound like you let them play in ALL the yards in the neighborhood. Lawn equipment and children are both fine if they stay in the yards of the people they belong to. Although while I wouldn’t welcome unknown children playing in my yard, if I found someone happened to be mowing my lawn for me I’d be all right with that.

@CLee

Like your name, by the way. Flyingfish

Thanks!

[DrDeth]

@Learjeff

I thought your comment was directed at CLee. If you’re just generally griping about parents who don’t pay any attention to what their kids are doing, I agree, but I think it’s beside the point of the thread.

Ya see, this is a public message board. Since none of us will ever meet Clee or her child, or even if we did we wouldn’t know we did- CLEARLY it’s an open letter from all parents with young noisy (but not bad) kids to those who don’t have any.

It’s like when Miss Manners prints a letters about proper fork placement. She doesn’t mean that the fork placement rules apply only to the letter writer, but to all and sundry.

[bump]

@CanvasShoes

You know what does work, **100% of the time **for keeping shrieking (joyful or otherwise) children from hurting the ears of innocent bystanders?

Removing them from the scene of the crime if correcting them doesn’t work.

The catch is that sometimes that’s not feasible. For example, if you’re doing your grocery shopping with your toddler, and they lose their shit while you’re waiting in the checkout line or when you’re 3/4 of the way through the store with cold food in the cart.

You can’t really abandon your cart with the cold food in it to take the kid out, but sometimes you can’t really placate the kid either. It sucks, but there’s only so much you can do in that situation. People around you will just have to deal with it.

I do agree that 90% of what people get pissed off about is the parents, not the kids. I mean, I’m still annoyed with my old neighbors even now that I’m a parent. They were grandparents and for whatever reason, they’d put their shrieking loud grandkids in their backyard to play with their swingset, etc…

Normally that didn’t bother me in the least; that’s what that stuff’s for, and kids make noises. What monumentally annoyed me is that the neighbors would let them go out there and shriek and carry on at 6:30-7 am on Saturdays and Sundays. Had it been 9:00, I wouldn’t have cared less, but 7 am is a bit early for shrieking toddlers in the backyards on a weekend morning.

That’s the kind of thing that’s inconsiderate in my view.

[ZipperJJ]

@MsWhatsit

One of the reasons that I think parents often get a little eye-rolly about advice proffered by non-parents is that most parents have gone through the experience of thinking they will parent a certain way, or that there is a right way/wrong way to handle a particular situation, and then having all of that knowledge updumped over their heads like a sack of rotten garbage when faced with a child who stubbornly refuses to comply with this parenting technique that you just know is supposed to work, goddammit. So you have to try something else instead until you figure out what does work. And you find that you are parenting in ways that you really never thought you would, because that’s what you have to do in order to turn your kid into a functional adult human being.

Nonparents, though they have had the experience of being a child themselves – and there is something to be said for advice given from that perspective – have not had this trash-dumping-over-head experience. So when they say things like, “Look, all you have to do in order to have X behavior is Y. I know this because when I was a kid, my parents did Y and I did X. It also works for my niece.” All you can do is shrug, because you know there are no umbrella solutions in parenting, but that knowledge comes from years of having your own attempted solutions dumped on your head like a trash can, and you can’t really replicate that for a nonparent arguing confidently in a message board thread.

So it’s ok if other parents give you advice - albeit wrong - because they’ve “been there” but someone else who has not been a parent could never understand?

What’s the difference between saying “do X for Y because it always works for my son” versus “do X for Y because it always works for my niece”?

If you don’t like advice from anyone because there’s no “umbrella answer” then ok. But if it’s just non-parent advice you don’t like, you’re just back to being in some sort of club.

[CanvasShoes]

@bump

The catch is that sometimes that’s not feasible. For example, if you’re doing your grocery shopping with your toddler, and they lose their shit while you’re waiting in the checkout line or when you’re 3/4 of the way through the store with cold food in the cart.

You’re totally right, and MsWhatsit’s post was right on the money. I think the trouble is, and people don’t always articulate this well, is that the kids who are being the most annoying are the ones where the parents are not doing a thing, like the oblivious parents in the IHOP whose toddler is pouring pancake syrup down the back of the next booth over. Or where they really don’t need to have their overtired screeching kid in that particular place at that particular time, but they just don’t care, THEY want to be there and the hell with anyone else’s ears.

Most people appreciate the parents (and I’m one who tries to always remember to go out of my way to thank parents who are trying, and especially those that are succeeding) who are doing something, even if it’s not particularly affective at that time. What we HATE is the whole “hey, that’s kids, they make noise” attitude with no attempt at teaching them appropriate behaviour (or worse no understanding that there even IS such a thing as appropriate behaviour, the kids just get to run nilly willy through the restaurant endangering patrons and waitresses alike for example).

I have a funny story (telling on myself). I wish I could remember where I was, but it was something I kind of needed to be at, (a doctor’s appointment maybe). At any rate, my son, about 2 and a half at the time, was being a total brat. He was just being a terrible two and finally leading up to a full on temper tantrum. I kept trying to get him to behave but nothing worked, finally I grabbed his little overall straps and hauled his little fussy butt out of there like a suitcase. The other parents in the waiting room all applauded. I think I had to reschedule whatever it was, but it couldn’t be helped he was just out of control.

You can’t really abandon your cart with the cold food in it to take the kid out, but sometimes you can’t really placate the kid either. It sucks, but there’s only so much you can do in that situation. People around you will just have to deal with it.

And it makes all the difference in the world when the owners of the innocent ears standing nearby can see that you’re at least trying. And yes, grocery stores get a pass. Diapers and formula are necessities.

Decorative teapots? Not so much. As an example a lady with an obviously overtired 3/4 year old (her fault not the kid’s), who was standing in a long line at the secondhand store with some decorative teapots while her kid deafened the rest of the people in line. And she was getting some dirty looks and disgusted sighs by the folks in line. She at least had the grace to attempt to excuse herself. Just about when it was finally my turn, she said out loud and all huffily “haven’t YOU ever had a fussy kid in public”? I happened to be looking her way at that moment and I said “yes, and I took him right out of there”! This is the kind of thing that drives the public crazy re: special snowflake status some people think exists.

I do agree that 90% of what people get pissed off about is the parents, not the kids. I mean, I’m still annoyed with my old neighbors even now that I’m a parent. They were grandparents and for whatever reason, they’d put their shrieking loud grandkids in their backyard to play with their swingset, etc…

Oh lord YES. Look, I grew up in the generation before “inside toys” like Nintendo etc. But somehow we managed to play for hours at a time outside without screeching as if someone were being axe murdered. What the hell is up with the supposed need for kids to just SCREAM for no good reason? Not “I’m being chased, he’s gonna get me” happy kid screaming, LOUD sustained, bloodcurdling screaming.

Normally that didn’t bother me in the least; that’s what that stuff’s for, and kids make noises. What monumentally annoyed me is that the neighbors would let them go out there and shriek and carry on at 6:30-7 am on Saturdays and Sundays. Had it been 9:00, I wouldn’t have cared less, but 7 am is a bit early for shrieking toddlers in the backyards on a weekend morning.

That’s the kind of thing that’s inconsiderate in my view.

I couldn’t agree more!

[Jackmannii]

@CLee

You are responsible for your own happiness and well-being so if you want to shop in a child-free environment, do so after midnight, shop online, or hire a shopping service. Those things should be at least as easy as hiring a babysitter, right?

As far as the inconvenience to other shoppers, that’s just tough.

For some reason I’m reminded of the telemarketer in a now notorious thread, who reminded people that since they had a telephone, that implied that they wanted to be called at all hours by aggressive salespeople.

@CLee

You may not know it now because you know everything, but at some point in your life you will need my kids to help take care of you and you will be grateful

Shoot me now.

[CLee]

@Jackmannii

For some reason I’m reminded of the telemarketer in a now notorious thread, who reminded people that since they had a telephone, that implied that they wanted to be called at all hours by aggressive salespeople.Shoot me now.

You have failed to explain why children are an extra special nuisance in stores. How is their presence more of a bother than the hordes of doddering, confused senior citizens clogging up the aisle on the 3rd of each month? Or the chatty Cathys who stop to gossip in front of the very item you would like to shop for? Or the giant, noisy scooters that a buggy can’t fit past? I don’t know how in the world some of you people manage to run errands if the mere presence of kids is such an insurmountable burden. The only explanation for your complete lack of empathy is that a few of you managed to skip infancy and childhood and emerge as fully formed adults.

But yeah, shoot yourself now if you don’t wish to be cared for by people who will patiently assist you when you are helpless, confused, and even more ornery.

[DrDeth]

@ZipperJJ

So it’s ok if other parents give you advice - albeit wrong - because they’ve “been there” but someone else who has not been a parent could never understand?

What’s the difference between saying “do X for Y because it always works for my son” versus “do X for Y because it always works for my niece”?

If you don’t like advice from anyone because there’s no “umbrella answer” then ok. But if it’s just non-parent advice you don’t like, you’re just back to being in some sort of club.

My friend tells a funny story about this. He did mention a childrearing hint to a Mom standing in line with him. The Mom asked him, “Do you have kids of your own?” whereupon he said “No, not yet….” Then she interrupted him with “Then you don’t know how it is, sorry”. Of course he then didn’t bother telling her he was a registered Child psychologist with two doctorates.

Strangely, people who are having problems raising their kids seem to think that no one else could possibly have any good advice.

[Jackmannii]

@CLee

your complete lack of empathy

I have considerable empathy for the children.

It’s a miserable handicap to be saddled with lazy, clueless parents.

[purplehorseshoe]

@CLee

You have failed to explain why children are an extra special nuisance in stores. How is their presence more of a bother than the hordes of doddering, confused senior citizens clogging up the aisle on the 3rd of each month? Or the chatty Cathys who stop to gossip in front of the very item you would like to shop for? …

Oh, make no mistake. Those people are annoying PITAs too, and I’m sure you can dig up posts and threads where Dopers bitch about that kind of behavior as well. It’s not an either/or thing here. There’s plenty of annoynaces, and plenty of bitching, to go around!
(Forgive my ignorance, but, uh, what’s so special about the 3rd of each month … ? )

[CLee]

@Jackmannii

I have considerable empathy for the children.

It’s a miserable handicap to be saddled with lazy, clueless parents.

It would be much easier, and lazier, for me to leave the kids at home with my husband and do my shopping without distraction. I take them with me deliberately because it’s an opportunity for them to learn and interact with others. As I said earlier, if it’s inconvenient for a cranky stranger to step around the toddlers, too bad. You already know how to navigate a crowd, they do not. You have the choice of shopping at more expensive less family oriented stores. I do not. You have a choice of shopping during hours in which kids are more likely to be home in bed, I do not. And I am very invested in their learning and future habits. Yours are none of my affair.