An uncomfortable situation

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

As some of you may know, I volunteer for an animal adoption organization. We are ALL volunteers - and we pride ourselves on being professional at all times, and not letting our personal feelings get in the way of the good of the organization. I am on the Board of Directors. In addition, I train volunteers and do a whole lot of other stuff.

Recently, I was called on to train a new volunteer to be an adoption counselor. I had met her for preliminary training a couple of times before, but Saturday was the first time she’d been in to work with the public in the Adoption Center. She is what she calls a Pagan, and, as such, wears a number of pieces of large jewelry with symbols advertising this religion. One of these pieces is a large pentagram medallion, which she had worn on the other occasions I’d seen her. (For those of you who don’t know - and I imagine there aren’t many of you - a pentagram is a symbol of a five-pointed star enclosed in a circle and is commonly associated with satanism. For that matter, even the minority who are aware that it can be associated Paganism still think they’re sacrificing animals.) Shortly after arriving at the Adoption Center, I politely asked her if she would mind tucking the medallion into her shirt, as we live in a fairly conservative area and I didn’t want to stir up any untoward feelings about her or our organization. She acquiesced willingly and without complaint, then, about forty-five minutes later, said she was feeling ill, and left. I wished her well, and thought no more of it.

This morning, our organization’s founder, who has become a very close friend, called me and said that she had received an e-mail from this volunteer, who, apparently, was very offended and angry. One of her points was that I never would have said a word had her symbol been a Star of David - and she’s right about that. I wouldn’t have. However, in my book, comparing a Star of David to a pentagram is apples to oranges. It’s a very rare person indeed who is going to judge an animal organization based on a Jewish volunteer’s religion.

Here are my feelings:
[ul]
[li] An animal organization can’t afford to be associated with satanic rituals, even to the extent of permitting a volunteer to wear symbols normally associated with them. Look at what happened to Procter & Gamble.[/li][li] A volunteer who doesn’t understand that the good of the organization comes before what winds up being a matter of personal taste really isn’t in it for the organization’s good (it’s bigger than that, I know, but it IS decoration - her religion is not requiring that she wear this thing.)[/li][li] A volunteer who has a complaint with another should at least give the first one an opportunity to respond to the complaint before taking it to the founder of the organization.[/li][/ul]
To test the emotional waters, I asked around. I asked my coworkers, my mother, and my husband. The response was pretty universal. “How would you react to an adoption counselor wearing the Star of David?” Basically, they wouldn’t. “What if it were a pentagram?” My mother would have been offended, left, and warned off other people. My husband would have been concerned about animal sacrifices going on somewhere in the bowels of the organization. My coworkers responded the same way. Not one of them said they would ask her why she was wearing it (part of her message indicated that she would be able to defend it, but if nobody asked, that’s a moot point.) Our founder is most concerned about the first amendment issues that may come into play - I don’t feel they’re relevant, but not being a student of the legal aspect of this kind of thing, I have no idea.

Anyway, I’ve sent an explanatory and conciliatory e-mail to this volunteer, but I still feel uncomfortable about the whole exchange. So the questions I have for you are the following:
[ul]
[li] How would you have reacted to an animal volunteer wearing the symbol?[/li][li] By asking her to cover it (not remove it), was I stepping on her rights, or was I protecting the organization’s reputation?[/li][li] If I was stepping on her rights, does religious freedom supercede all other concerns?[/li][li] If I’m protecting the organization, how do we move forward? I hate to have to issue a sweeping ban of religious symbols, but it may come to that.[/li][li] If you have any experience in these matters, what are the legal precedents for this kind of thing?[/li][/ul]
Thanks. This really has me bothered.

Julie

2

Toughie since this was a volunteer.

As for your questions:

  1. I would have thought this person led an odd (IMHO) existence, but as an adoption counselor, I would have sat and listened to what she had to SAY. Even if she looked freakish (no offense to the freaks here).

  2. That is a real tough one. If the organization had a code of conduct that had an “appearance” clause, you MIGHT have had something to stand on. But I kinda doubt it. Legally, that is. Looks like you were doing both. Sorry.

  3. Hi, Opal!

3a. Religious freedom means you are free to PRACTICE your chosen religion, not wear it. But as this is volunteer, and again back to the code of conduct, there may not be legit reasons why she couldn’t wear that.

  1. If the UCLU reads the SDMB, oh, shudder the thought.

  2. There would need to be clear working guidelines that all volunteers agree to. Don’t wear “Big Johnson” t-shirts (sexually suggestive, potentially offensive), do not wear “WWJD” t-shirts, (potentially religiously offensive to Jews and Buddhists and Athiests). But you are not the military, you don’t have that control over everything. This person would have ideally answered your request with a reply, sparking a conversation which may have ended better. In the long run, there are those offended by a yalmuke (sp?) or Star of David. Some are offended by a woman wearing her hair covered. Or ashes on their forehead on Ash Wednesday. I hate to say it, but I don’t feel it would be right to tell any of the aforementioned three examples to stop expressing their religion in a way that is meant to be public.

Better communication for both sides nay have helped. Better luck next time.

(Sheesh, what the hell help was THAT?)

3

How would you have reacted to an animal volunteer wearing the symbol? * with about the same emotion as
I would a Christian wearing a cross. With utter lack of interest. If she is present & apparently willing to help animals who cares? just as I would assume a Muslim is not going to kill any cloven hoofed animals, I would not instantly assume she is going to stomp puppies.
By asking her to cover it (not remove it), was I stepping on her rights, or was I protecting the organization’s reputation? *Yes, you were stepping on her rights. If anyone else in the organization is going to get their panties in a wad about this, I would worry about their stability & ability to handle the stress of caring for animals who may have some kind of medical emergency. If she was a Baptist, would you get all torqued up about her inherent tendency to start slaughtering goats if she found herself in the same room as a man when she was on her period?
If I was stepping on her rights, does religious freedom supercede all other concerns? *The Supreme Court has yet to rule that Paganism falls under the penumbra of religious freedoms.

If I’m protecting the organization, how do we move forward? I hate to have to issue a sweeping ban of religious symbols, but it may come to that.
*You are taking your volunteer job entirely too seriously. You are also in terrible danger of falling prey to Ridiculous Extremes Of Political Sensitivity. Get over it, and please do not encourage this sort of idiotic navel gazing in your peer group. Go back & read your OP. I appreciate you taking your position seriously and applaud you for trying to be sensitive, But give me a break. :rolleyes:
If you have any experience in these matters, what are the legal precedents for this kind of thing? *See above. And yes, I have held several volunteer positions, includig literacy tutor, fostering abused dogs, working with domestic violence victims within the local court systems, and seven years as a rape crisis counselor. Anybody in any position who wore a religious symbol around their neck would not give me one second’s pause. And if anybody else had a problem with it, I would laugh in their faces and consider them silly…

4

Arrrgh! This is the third time I’ve tried to post this, so pardon me if I’m a wee bit testy.

jadailey, I don’t mean to be accusatory (see above), but based on the tone of your OP, I don’t find it hard to believe that your co-worker found your “politeness” offensive (emphasis mine):

Now, I, as a Wiccan, would be offended not only being asked to remove/hide my pentacle in a situation where others could freely wear crosses, Stars of David, etc.–but I would also be offended by someone who seems so dismissive? of my religion. If you’re Christian, how would you feel about someone repeating the above statements about you and a gold cross that you wear every day?

Now, onto your specific questions:
[ul][li] How would you have reacted to an animal volunteer wearing the symbol?[/li]I don’t think I’d be worried about her sacrificing kittens, certainly. I’d probably be happy to see a fellow pagan doing such pagan-like things: interest in the community, volunteerism, caring for animals…
[li] By asking her to cover it (not remove it), was I stepping on her rights, or was I protecting the organization’s reputation?[/li]I think you were reacting to your own bias or ignorance. By the version of the story you give in the OP, you don’t say that there had been any reaction to her pentacle…in public or amongst your co-workers. You express discomfort about the ideas/actions you associate with the pentacle and, after the fact, get support for your actions.
[li] If I was stepping on her rights, does religious freedom supercede all other concerns?[/li]I don’t think it does, but her rights were stepped on before there was even a hint that the organization might suffer.
[li] If I’m protecting the organization, how do we move forward? I hate to have to issue a sweeping ban of religious symbols, but it may come to that.[/li]This seems ridiculous to me…in fact, I think this knee-jerk reaction will harm you more than a pentacle will.
[li] If you have any experience in these matters, what are the legal precedents for this kind of thing?[/li]I don’t know about volunteer organizations. I know that Wiccans have tried and won cases in schools, however. See the ACLU news release about a case in a Michigan school.[/ul]

On a personal level, what annoys me about your situation is that now you’ve gone around and provoked a similar train of thought in your family and friends. Please find it in your heart to understand that the pentacle, just like the rituals of Catholic Mass and the Christian cross, has been coopted by satanists or satanist-wanna-bes. As a result, people openly expressing their pagan spirtuality have to battle with these misconceptions any time they choose to “come out of the broom closet.” I recommend that you visit a reputable Wiccan site, like The Witches’ Voice, and learn a bit more about the history of this symbol that you’re attacking.

Thank you.
…moi

5

There is a lot of ignorance to be fought in this world, and the OP’s should be next on the block to be iradicated.

Sheesh.

6

You aren’t protecting the organization so much as you are protecting ignorance. The people who would be afraid of the pentagram are precisely the ones who should be told exactly what it is and that it has absolutely nothing to do with Satanism (any more than a cross does).

I realize it is not your organization’s job to educate the public on religious awareness but neither should it be your job to promote the ignorance of such ideas. The organization is one that by its nature, adopting pets, is helping to foster caring and responsible behavior in people. Yet, you would deny someone a right you freely allow others just because some people might get the wrong idea? That isn’t very caring or responsible. Instead of the Star of David example, what if this individual had been wearing a Gay Pride ribbon or pin? I mean, there are many people who are turned off and offended by homosexuals. Would your husband have been concerned about any beastiality that might have been going on in the organization?

So far as legalities go, you may want to check with your local ACLU. Most pagans I know are ardent animal lovers, as this woman apparently was since she is volunteering at an animal shelter. But hey, if forcing someone to hide something that she has no reason to be ashamed of is more important than having a caring woman who loves animals on staff, then more power to you.

7

You have a right to ask the people working for you dress appropriatly. That includes jewelry deemed offensive. To some employers body piercings are offensive and not allowed for those working with the public.

IMHO this applies to jewelry also. Including PENTAGRAMS that have just recently come into style as a “pagan religion” whatever that means. Just a few short years ago I was obsessed with pentagrams before they were considered “religious items” guffaw because I considered myself a “satanist”. Thats a story for another time however.

Paganism is not nor has ever been considered a mainstream religion. You wouldn’t want people in the “religion of voodoo” to wear chickens feet around their neck would you? NO.

My appologies to the wonderful people on this board who consider themselves Pagans… this is not to say that people who believe in such things can not be wonderful people who are a joy to know because it is OBVIOUS that they are/can be. I know many people online and MORE in my personal life at work that are pagans and do not dislike a single one.

8

Ummm… hello. It does to Satanists. Or do you not consider Satanism a real religion?

9

I think my reaction to seeing someone wearing a large medallion pentacle at a shelter would be “shouldn’t she tuck it into her shirt so it doesn’t get caught on everything, bang into everything when she bends over, or entice energetic animals to bite at it and possibly pull it off?”

I can understand jadailey not wanting less considerate and more vocal people to be offended and spread false rumors about the shelter. But, I also think that the situation could have been handled better; something like “many of our customers and patrons might misunderstand and be wrongly offended by your symbol, would you possibly consider wearing a smaller one? As you know, stupid people must be occasionally tolerated and thrashed at a later time. The fight against ignorance is slow, and painful for those afflicted, and must be fought in small calculated steps. And the occasional hard thwack to the head.”

10

Did you hurt yourself with that knee-jerk?

Yes, I believe Satanism to be a religion. However, in this case, the woman is not a Satanist, therefore her pentacle is not related to Satanism–any more than any other employee’s cross would be.

11

Anyway, you seem to be the one who doesn’t seem to think that Satanism is a religion, as pointed out by your statement,

If you had pentagrams because you were a “satanist” and this was, as you say, before pentagrams were considered religious items, then you must not consider it to be a religion yourself. Or is your condescending use of “quotes” and lack of capitalization supposed to tell us that all on their own?
For the record, I agree wholeheartedly with Palmyra’s take on the situation.

12

I doubt I’d notice. I rarely notice other people’s jewelry. If I did, I’d think “oh, he/she must be wiccan or something,” and then go back to thinking about the dogs at the agency.

I don’t think you were protecting the organization’s reputation. I honestly don’t think the reputation was at stake from jewelry worn by one of its volunteers.

You guys need a policy. Not one made at the spur of the moment, which yours feels like, but one that is actually thought out deliberately by the entire board of directors (or whoever makes decisions like that in your organization). One of the things (and there are many) which rubs me the wrong way about the situation is that it reads as though you singled her out, on a momentary impulse. If there were a written policy saying “no wearing any of the following while volunteering:” and a list of items that included pentagram jewelry, and you had pointed that out to her, it would have been less bad.

That said, I don’t it is at all fair to ban pentagrams and not ban crosses and crucifixes and Stars of David and any other religious symbols as well. If you were a religious organization (or affiliated with some faith group) that would be different. But, from what I read, it seems you’re a secular organization…In that sense, evidence that the org. was treating some people’s faith as more legitimate than others would drive me away much faster than a pentagram ever would. That kind of discrimination absolutely damages the organization’s reputation. Which is what I think you’re trying to avoid

(my reaction to the statements of your family and friends is not conducive to civilized conversation.)

13

and here’s my take on it Ms ja.

You had a task to do and this issue of a visible sign of her beliefs came up. You had to make a decision, and you made the best you could. Points to you.

She doesn’t discuss it with you, makes an excuse to leave and then complains over your head to the founder. You said “we’re all volunteers”, so I’m presuming it’s a small one-level organisation. If it was the founder who interviewed her and took her on for the position, and who issues all of you your instructions, then okay, that’s the person to talk to. If there are levels of “middle management” between the founder and you guys, then she’s lost points, and is a dobber (OZ for tattletale).

BIG IMPORTANT QUESTION: What’s the aim of your organisation? To facilitate the adoption of animals? I suspect this is it. Is encouraging religious tolerance part of the aims? I doubt it.

Now I believe in religious tolerance, sure. Frankly, I think you and all the other posters on the thread are more tolerant of this particular religion than I am ever likely to be.

Anyway. My experience of volunteers is that someone who expresses major problems with the organisation in the early days of their involvement is NOT WORTH KEEPING as a volunteer.

Oh how harsh and intolerant, yeah sure. But what any volunteer organisation needs is people who will get in the boat and row in the same direction as the boat’s going!

Repeatedly I have found that:

(a) the man who at the initial training session offers me twenty ideas for how my organisation can be dramatically improved will not have the patience to learn how we currently do it, get bored and leave within a month.

(b) the woman who refuses to wear a nametag for the training session because she doesnt like to be labelled, will also have an aversion to turning up for her shift on time, or notifying people if she’s not coming at all.

© the couple at orientation, both wearing large badges that say Lose Weight Now, Ask Me How, will do the whole training course and then, at the very end, say they can’t actually come and work right now, but will get back to you. And of course they never do.

You get the picture, folks? If volunteers are not willing to cooperate at the beginning it is very unlikely to improve, and certain to get worse.

Volunteering is a complex transaction. You work quite hard for no financial reward, but not for NO reward. People have a great range of different rewards - thanks, personal satisfaction, the chance to learn job skills, to feel greater self-esteem. These are all legitimate. But some times people want rewards that harm the organisation - to use the organisations resources dishonestly (ie steal), to get status without putting in the necessary work, or to get attention by creating controversy that they are the centre of.

She came to your organisation, and each time (am I right?) she’s worn these Large Symbols - she wants people to say “oh what’s that” and get off on her controversial stuff, as a priority above facilitating the adoption of animals.

Remember the animals? No religion, they don’t need tolerance, just someone to look after them.

You don’t need her. Better have her leave now than later. She’s trouble. You have no duty toward her other than common courtesy.

I trust your founder will support you. If you are the stable thoughtful person that your post suggests the founder would be a fool not to.

amarinth mentions policies, and that’s an important point, but I think this is the kind of issue that you can’t cover ahead of time. There are too may possibilities. Like, what policies should you have on facial tattoos? Sometimes you just have to make the best decision you can. Clearly outlined principles and focus on the aims of the organisation can make these decisions clearer.

And to all those posters who now think I’m a big jerk I will say this in my defence. I believe that courtesy means I make no remark on someone else’s religion, except in a supportive way. I may think catholicism and paganism are both equally goony, but, if I did, I certainly don’t want to offend colleagues who hold such beliefs.

Once their religious practices impinge on my life that changes. I’ll smile and bite my tongue while you talk about circumcising your sons. Suggest I circumcise mine and I will smile and bite your head off instead.

Julia, you did the right thing.

Redboss

[sub] I love youse all**

14

I try to make these effective exits, and then I have to come back to say

sorry

It’s Julie. Like my sister.

Not Julia like the Beatles song.
[embarrassed] 'bye!

15

I have never in my life paused to consider the religion, jewlery, or personal life of a person I encountered in the couse of adopting an animal. Nor would I care to. What difference does it make.

I want a pet, they want to provide a pet with a good home… this is where my relationship with this person ends.

I don’t care if they wish to chant mantras while they clean cages… all that matters is that they are good to the animals, and polite and respectful to me.

I have a question, if a person came into your organization, wishing to adopt an animal, she is wearing respectable clothes, is clean and neat, and willing to provide appropriate references (or whatever your procedure requires)but is also wearing a pentacle, would you allow her to adopt a pet? Or would you immediately worry she would slaughter it?

I think you worry overly much about people’s perceptions of your organization. As long as you are operating within the law, and truely proving the best service you can, i don’t think anyone is going to even pause to consider the possible belief systems of your volunteers.

I think it would probably have been best to discuss your feelings/fears with the founder (who, I am assuming, holds ultimate responsibility for the organization not you) BEFORE you approached the volunteer. You judged someone by your opinions of her belief system, and not only that, but you presumed that your opinon would be validated by the general public (asking you family and close friends is NOT a sampling of the general public)

The volunteer is well within her rights to display any jewelery or symbol not forbidden in your dress code. Taking it on your own authority to ask her to hide it was not the best choice. That being said, her chosing not to discuss the matter with you, but to go to the founder “over your head” was also not the best choice. As someone who has been in the same position as your volunteer… I would have gone to the founder, and asked for a meeting with both you and the founder. [You may ask why I wouldn’t speak with you about it when you requested the change… the reason is, I have been beaten for my beliefs, I have been hospitalized for the results of those beatings, and I don’t like to face anyone 1 on 1 anymore) I would then have explained that by my understanding, your organization did not have any rules regarding the jewelery of employees. Since I had done nothing inappropriate (assuming there was no such rule previously written), I would ask why I was being singled out. Since I am resonable (and I personally happen to love animals) I would probably have been willing to work out a compromise so that I could continue to volunteer… but I might have just left.

You lost someone who could have been an asset to you organization. And you drove that person away.

-pandora

16

For the record, Whammo, telling me I have the potential to be wonderful after referring to my religious symbols as offensive and fadish and being dismissive and ignorant of paganism overall doesn’t cut it. Arrgh!

See Pagan1 and Pagan2.

Pentacles (see the link in my first post) are not new. They have been considered a religious symbol for longer than you are aware:

I understand, Whammo, that your “obsession” with pentacles wasn’t meaningful to you, but please don’t dismiss them or others who are truly religious.

Depends on your definition. Wicca, which does not constitute the whole of Paganism, is gaining acceptance in the U.S. In the broadest definition, Pagan means a person who is neither Christian, a Muslim or a Jew. This refers to 45% of the people of the world. Is that mainstream?

I’m not an expert on Voodoo or Vodun, but a search for those terms and jewelery didn’t lead me to chicken feet, but rather cowrie shells, pendulumns and :smiley: gator teeth.

All I can say is that you need to stop making assumptions about religious based on Hollywood and kids acting out.

17

Isn’t there a difference between the way Pagans wear and display a penttagram and the way Satanists do?

My daughter has been known to lecture extensively to anyone that hassles her about her pentagram that Pagans display them with a single point up-the correct way, whereas Satanists wear theirs upside down with two points up and the single point down, calling to mind a horned goat’s head.

18

I’ll agree that the volunteer should have confronted Julie in a more constructive way. But that’s all I’ll agree with.

In the quote above, it is stated that the volunteer wanted to create a stir by wearing large jewelry. I think that’s a pretty big assumption. How can you know what was in the volunteer’s mind?

Volunteers, paid workers, whatever…yes it is important that everyone cooperate, not seek out trouble, but then again it depends on what sort of demands are being made. I think asking this woman to hide her Pentacle was unfair. If I were asked to hide my Star of David (if I wore one, which I don’t), hide my religion, for the sake of an animal adoption agency, I’d go find myself another agency to work for quickly.

There is a need for policy, a dress code. Something forbidding jewlery over a certain size, or only a certain number of items of jewelry. But I don’t think it fair to base it on religion, unless you want to say no religious jewlery at all, no matter what religion, and even asking that might be a bit too much.

The whole OP rubbed me the wrong way, I think she was wrong, and if anyone is interested, I’m not religious at all.

19

I forgot to add:

The last part of the post seems to negate the first part of the post. You don’t want to offend your coworkers’ religious beliefs but you support the OP’s actions, and the OP was pretty offensive. It is also stated you don’t mind other peoples’ beliefs as long as they don’t impinge on your own life. Wearing religious jewelry at work doesn’t do that.

20

I don’t want to add another long reply to this thread, so I’ll keep this quick. Any assumptions others would have made regarding this jewelry would have been due to either their ignorance or their intolerance. I find both of these reasons inexcusable. If there had been a previous dress code in place with a rule stating something like, “because we do not want our name affiliated with any political party, religion or blah-ba-blah we require volunteers not to wear symbols, t-shirts and other cloths that might display support for any such cause or way of life. . . etc.” You get my drift. Because no such dress code was in place, I think your request was rather discriminatory. Just my opinion. . .

[sub]animal sacrifices?! good grief.[/sub]