I don’t think anyone would disagree with the notion that “you shouldn’t be spreading false accusations.”
Lets say you believe *her *story.
That makes Hardwick’s story a “false defense”, does it not?
Its a false defense, and he shouldn’t be spreading it. You’d agree with that notion, would you not?
I don’t actually think you know what #metoo is all about at all.
That doesn’t surprise me one bit.
You don’t “shitcan” someone for “bullshit politics.” AMC found Dykstra’s initial allegations to be credible and have suspended Hardwick pending further investigation. That is an entirely appropriate way of handling it.
I’m not advocating for a “lack of credibility.” Don’t accuse me of things I’m not doing.
And the #metoo movement is doing perfectly fine: and there is nothing that I could do to bring it into disrepute.
Two things: First, I haven’t been following this thread closely, but it looks to me like it’s more about the general situation than about two individuals who happen to be entertainers. As such, it might be more appropriate for GD. Moving.
Second:
I realize that this is hypothetical, but I just wanted to remind everyone: We moderators can’t ordinarily read PMs… but you can report them just like any other post, and if you report a PM, then we can read it. In other words, if you are receiving abusive PMs, please report them so we can follow up. You might also want to e-mail or PM a mod to draw our attention to it, but the report is what enables us to follow up.
I would recommend you spend some time reading about the idea of a “rape culture” since you obviously don’t understand the reference. This book is dated, but it is good and gives a compelling argument for the U.S. having a rape culture…
You have a party, during your party, money goes missing from the place you keep extra cash. But, maybe it was a misunderstanding - maybe you moved it. Or, as one of your friends points out when you mention it, maybe you spent it. Now that he brings it up, you bet you grabbed it when you went to the brewery Thursday.
A week later, you have another get together, inviting some of the same people, again, at the end of the night, things are missing.
Are you a victim? You invited people into your home suspecting one of them stole from you. You can’t prove they did, but now its been twice.
You’re way over the line here. Why can’t a person suspend judgement on both individual’s accounts until more credible information emerges? It’s just as wrong to automatically jump to her defence as it is to jump to his. Both could be lying for all you know, or is it only her who gets the benefit of your doubt? You think that’s what #metoo is all about?
I am trying to follow the analogy. Did she wake up one morning and her virginity was gone and she wasn’t sure who took it? Or was she dating lots of men at once and she’s not sure which one was the asshole?
In her own words, he was a controlling asshole from the start. What is the solution, assume that women are incapable of making good decisions and appoint a male guardian for them?
Suspend judgment all you want. As I said before, I don’t care what you believe. I care what you do – and if you attack someone unjustly for doing nothing more than speaking out, then I’m going to criticize you. I’m “jumping to her defense” because it’s already so difficult in this society to come forward with stories of abuse that it’s wrong to add onto that pile of shit, as you’ve done, without any actual reason to conclude she’s not being honest.
If you don’t believe her, fine. I don’t care. Just don’t make it harder for the next victims to come forward by attacking those that do with zero actual proof of dishonesty.
#metoo is (among other things) about listening to women (and men) who wish to tell of their experiences of abuse and harassment without judgment or attacks, barring real evidence they’re not being honest. That’s my point here – she should have the room to tell her story without being attacked just for telling her story. It’s a shitty thing to do – it’s helping to continue the status quo of it being very hard to come forward, and you shouldn’t do it.
Who’s attacking? I’m not. I question her motives, especially since the Chris Hardwick she describes—ahem, anonymous former lover—does not fit with the Chris Hardwick I know from watching him on TV for several years. Could he be someone entirely different than the nerd he plays? Certainly. Could she be making a false accusation? Also certainly. Your erring on the side of the accuser—that’s your right. I err on the side of innocent until proven guilty. I can think of PLENTY of reasons a jilted lover might want revenge. It happens. But let me make absolutely clear: I have never once attacked Chloe Dykstra in anything she has said or
done, even though I find her story a little hard to believe .
Questioning her motives publicly is attacking her. And unless you have intimate personal knowledge of these two people, you have no legitimate reasons to question her motives. “does not fit with the Chris Hardwick I know from watching him on TV” is, frankly, laughable. It was laughable for Bill Cosby, it’s laughable for Hardwick and Dykstra, and it’s laughable for accusations against any public figure. TV performances are just that – performances. Performances don’t necessarily have anything at all to do with someone’s personal character. If you hadn’t learned that with Cosby, or OJ Simpson, or their predecessors, then hopefully you’ll learn it now.
I err on the side of not judging or attacking people, including questioning motives, simply for coming forward and telling a story about their personal experience, without very strong evidence of dishonesty, which doesn’t include how they seem on TV. I wish society did that too, and I wish there were fewer people like you who were willing and happy to jump in and attack people for doing nothing more than speak out about their experiences.
All I was trying to do was to answer the people who were complaining that it was somehow underhanded that she didn’t explicitly name Hardwick, as if that was a loophole would let her falsely damage Hardwick’s reputation with impunity.
But that’s not how libel works, as I was trying to explain. If she makes a false statement that damages his reputation, the fact that she didn’t explicitly use his name is irrelevant. So she didn’t find a loophole that allowed her to libel Hardwick with impunity.
Are you trying to imply that people make rational decisions based in cold logic, especially in matters of the heart or nether regions?
We’re not talking about virginity. We’re discussing shaming (based on her story) an abuse victim, because she didn’t leave immediately. That’s despicable. I pray you never say the same about any woman in your life that deals with repeated abuse.
If you haven’t read the account and think it’s none of your business, I question why you are in this thread at all. Wait, I don’t because the below makes it clear:
Once could be overlooked, even in such poor poor taste. Five times cannot be. This thread isn’t about your divorce or how much you want to disparage your ex. Knock off this bullshit and take it to another thread if you need to vent.
Judging from the posts, I don’t think most people in this thread have read the article in question. Or at least read it for comprehension.
Dykstra leads off with this statement:
bolding mine
She’s approaching this as a lesson in what emotional abuse looks like. Her takeaway message is “don’t be like I was and spend years of your life deluding yourself”. Isn’t this what we should want more of? Victims telling other potential victims what signs to look out for, so they don’t end up abused? How do people who need this kind of education get it if people don’t share their personal stories? The only reason she’s coming under fire is because she’s a celebrity of sorts and so is her ex. But I have a feeling no one would object to this article if she was some nobody free lancer.
What is someone like Dykstra supposed to do? Taking the position that she’s wrong for speaking out like this pretty much requires believing she is lying.
It’s not fair to say she understood his assholery from the beginning. Things can be more clear in retrospect than they were while taking place. A series of small or even significant things can take greater meaning when looked at as a pattern of behavior.
For example, if someone were to actually reserve judgment, and say, “I’m reserving judgment” I’d accept that. I think that’s fair. If they say repeatedly over and over, “I’m reserving judgment - she doesn’t’ sound believable, she could be lying, she could be a gold digger, she could be out for revenge, she could have deserved it, so I’m reserving judgment” then that’s not actually reserving judgment. I can’t think of a word for what that is, but gaslightingseems to fit and it’s total bullshit.
Emotional and psychological abuse is a thing. It’s sophomoric to think that people who suffer from psychological abuse should simply leave. People are complicated. That they may not react perfectly does not negate abuse.
This implication that the only available options is to let people get abused, or completely subjugate them is both facile and disparaging to actual victims of abuse. Castigating people for not leaving, or telling them the alternative is to treat them like babies - that’s the wrong direction.
I would say we are closer to being on the verge of abusers not being given free reign to engage in their assholery, and the faster we get there the better. At the same time, it’s a given that there will continue to be victims of abuse. The solution is not to subjugate and infantilize people, but to empower them and create a culture and environment where those who are victims feel comfortable speaking up and speaking out.
Because it’s not about Chris Hardwick. This is her story, her truth. She gets to tell her story how she wants to. She is the focus of this story, not him. She’s engaging in her own healing process, and trying to give voice to anyone else in similar circumstances. She is done with his shit and he is not the star of this story.
Calling her a liar is absolutely attacking her. JFC.
Thank you. It is a HUGE difference between “nearly every single woman I know has a sexual abuse story” and “a few guys are falsely accused.” And I know a guy who was falsely accused - you know what, the official investigations exonerated him. (It was sexual harassment - and a case where he was believable and she wasn’t. Even I - an ardent feminist and former sexual harassment victim - didn’t find her believable.
And by the logic of blame the victim, if you are falsely accused, you really should have not gone near the crazy. That’s what we tell women who are raped and abused - when we deign to believe them - “why were in you that situation in the first place?” Its so prevalent that it becomes a reason not to believe them “no sensible woman would go into a hotel room with that guy/stay in a relationship that was abusive” - how about “no sensible man would take a woman into his hotel room or date a woman who was going to accuse him of abuse.”
From the start one of your friends is a liar and a thief. Maybe you suspect that from day one, but you don’t KNOW it, maybe he just has a a bad rep. He does have a habit of paying less than his share of a check or forgetting his wallet - but lots of people do that. Money starts disappearing from your house, maybe someone else took it, maybe he has a good reason for taking it, maybe you misplaced it or spent it. You overlook it. He does you a huge favor. More money goes missing and this time you are pretty sure its him, but he just did you a huge favor, you decide to overlook it. More money goes missing. He 'fesses up this time, but he’s been having a really hard time - he’s been sick and hasn’t gotten the hours in at work and he’ll pay you back as soon as he gets it, really.
At what point are you a victim of a shitty human being? Or because you’ve let yourself make excuses for your “friend” are you never a victim? Even if, when he eventually, while feeding your cat, walks off with everything of value in your apartment and you say “enough.”
This is how it works for abused women (and abused men - my brother in law had a brief relationship like this - she walked off with everything in his apartment while he was out of town after stealing small shit from him - all while he was saying “she isn’t as bad as people think.”). It starts with “he isn’t as bad as people think” and then, having defended him, you make excuses for him. And it escalates, like the story of the frog in the boiling water, until you are lying in a hospital bed and he’s asking “when can I fuck her?” in front of your mother.
The guys who have these crazy lying ex-girlfriends, why didn’t you leave at the first sign of crazy lyingness? Why did you go to a hotel room with a strange women without first finding out whether she’s a crazy liar? You have to learn to protect yourself!