And now we've given up

I didn’t want to start a new thread, but this is new and different (and probably pay-walled). arizonarepublic

"Phoenix-based Banner Health, which is Arizona’s largest private employer, says its entire workforce must get a COVID-19 vaccine by Nov. 1.

Banner is the first health system or hospital in the state to publicly announce mandatory COVID-19 vaccines for employees. There will be “limited exceptions” to the requirement, officials said. The criteria for those exceptions is still being developed, according to Banner leadership."

Douchey has forbidden private companies from requiring their employees be vaccinated. Banner is the largest private employer in Arizona and they probably have pretty good lawyers. I am looking forward to the standoff and certainly do hope that Banner wins.


We’re in the middle a real Idiocracy-level bunch of idiocy and it’s time to stop dealing with irrational ideas and people as tho they were otherwise.

Besides, what are they gonna do? Lock Banner Health up in prison?

That’s one of my happy thoughts. What would they really do if Banner Health chose to just close down? Hospitals and clinics suddenly empty during a recognized by everyone but the pubs COVID surge? That wouldn’t make voters really happy, even pub voters.

Of course, that won’t happen and I certainly don’t want it to happen. I just want them to stand up to the idiots and help turn things around as much as they can.

Probably declare that modern medicine is a lefty liberal plot, and pass legislation saying that nobody is allowed to see a doctor, and if they get sick, they can go get homeopathic medicine, or pray the disease away, or maybe go to a barber to get a good bleeding. (Cue: Theodoric of York; Medieval Barber)

I’m sure that in years to come, the survivors and descendants will look back at wonder how such a slow-moving, easily preventable virus decimated civilization.

ETA: Mad props to you, Euphonious, for knowing Theodoric of York!

Actually there is a thread on “Mandatory Vaccination,” and that might be a place to cross-post this item.

I’ve spent the last six days going in and out of NewYork-Presbyterian / Weill Cornell Medical Center. I wasn’t the patient – my father was taken there from his memory care residential facility.

I have to say, the medical staff of that hospital has a really, really relaxed attitude about wearing masks. I mean, really relaxed. In that a lot of the staff just don’t bother. Even around elderly patients.

If the staff of a reputable hospital is sending the message that masks don’t matter, there’s nothing to worry about, how can we expect anyone to care?

On some other message board, I have run across a significant minority of patient-care professionals (including a few M.D.s) who believe that masking has not really been all that effective against COVID spread. In an unguarded moment, they’ll post that “masking has no effect” is kind of “medicine’s little secret” but that most can’t talk about it openly for political reasons. And yes, they’ll post a few just-so studies or results from just-so experiments that kind of point to masks not working very well.

Might be worth a new thread.

I have to say I didn’t see any MDs without masks. Nurses, though? Lots of them. Also plenty of staffers who weren’t RNs or MDs.

My original thread looking for the best data: To Mask or Not to Mask, that is the Question

The explanations about how masks work on this disease are intuitively satisfying. The hard data is (understandably) harder to come by and what data we have is generally difficult to interpret.

Here’s the perfect test:
800 people quarantine for two weeks and get tested to ensure they don’t have COVID already.
Each participant sits in a small room with somebody actively infected with COVID for 30 minutes. In 400 cases the ill person is wearing a mask. In 400 cases the ill person is not wearing a mask.
All participants go back into quarantine for 2 more weeks.
Monitor for differences in infection rates.

Who wants to fund my study?

The commodities markets are going to be overwhelmed by leech-breeding speculation.

In the news today:

Union protests NewYork-Presbyterian vaccine requirement

I have been at Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania facilities a lot in recent weeks and only noticed unmasking once, when doc was privately delivering patient not so good (but could be worse) news.

They also have a September 1 vaccine deadline (August 1 for docs). No unions.

I am glad this is happening.

I think many people have put off routine and/or acute care because they doubt their safety in medical offices. I know I wasn’t thrilled to go to my doctor and see all of the front office staff unmasked. Even if they all were vaccinated (under 35% in this county so that’s pretty doubtful), what sort of example were they making to the patients.

I have a new doctor now.

I saw that somewhere, some local news outlet.

At this point, I’m perfectly fine with administering the vaccine at gunpoint.

The part that really annoys me about the MAGA types is that, despite all their “Rah rah 'Murrica!” nonsense, they can’t seem to figure out that the US is, even when they admit all their flaws, still way better than a whole lot of other places in the world. I can tell you as a Canadian, I’ve always been glad that we’re sharing a continent with the US, rather than China or Russia.

Trying to make the US better shouldn’t be interpreted as thinking you think the US is complete shit.

Alas, with the way the US has been going the last decade or so, I have started to worry about what happens if and when they completely collapse, and pretty much all of the fault for that is on the MAGA types, as hard as that might be for them to believe.

Sure. But I do not think we’d have this new dangerous Delta varient killing so many covidiots if those covidiots hadn’t been propagandized into thinking the vaccine is bad.

Let us face it- Fox news, trump and conservative talk radio is responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of Americans. Some DA needs to charge someone with some sort of manslaughter or similar charges.

There are lots of things the GOP does that make sense, even if only in a evil way. Killing off your supporters with lies and propaganda does not. What do they gain?

I’ve thought about that, but the causation would be so difficult to establish. Maybe if you could tag somebody who actually attended one of trump’s rallies. The fact that they made folks sign a freakin’ waiver could be taken as indication that they (the rally holders) knew the degree of risk they were courting. I’m not a lawyer, but it seems to me that I may be able to sign a waiver waiving my right to sue but I don’t know if that waiver covers the rights of my survivors if I die.

I think, like a lot of CT issues, it’s an issue that took on a life of it’s own, combined with the general human (not exclusively Republican) desire to deny one’s own erros. Trump denied COVID concerns early on, and that lead a wide swath of people and politicians to decry it and the measures to combat it. When Trump and others later said to mask or vaccinate, they all did it with a fraction of the fervor they denied it. And at this point, some of them have to double down or look ‘weak’ to their bases.

Their calculus probably shows they’ll lose more votes by alienating the CT/Refuseniks/Anti-Vaxx groups than they will through COVID based deaths and defections - after all, a lot of that base will vote Republican on their own wedge issues whether or not the rest of the agenda is beneficial for them.

I think you’re giving them a lot more credit for thinking long range than is actually going on. This is closer to how they’re approaching it:

Herman Cain would be a useful witness here.