I disagree. Joss Whedon made it perfectly clear that Spike was not a genuine good guy – as Spike himself admitted to Buffy.
I wholeheartedly agree, and it makes the character all the more interesting. I for one, prefer evil Spike and I think it would be best to not allow him to fall back into that simpering blob of emotions that he was in the last season of BtVS.
He does have romantic tendencies, but being a vamp doesn’t preclude that. He also has a Spike code of behavior which doesn’t preclude him bringing flowers in honor of Buffy’s dead mom (or maybe just to curry favor with Buffy).
But just look at what a pig he is, immediately jumping Harmony when he becomes corporeal–Spike isn’t and shouldn’t be good.
Dawn: I’m evil.
Spike: I know evil and you are NOT it.
Dawn: Well, I’m not good!
Spike: So? I’m not good, and I’m OK.
Really, aside from Angellus, Darla, Dru, and the Master, Jossverse vamps aren’t that evil.
Yeah, they eat people and tend to like a bit of ultraviolence, but most of them never aspire to the heights of ultimate evil. Observe Harmony. No soul, but she’s off the human stuff and was never in the business of genocide. Most random vampires Buffer or Angel meet are out for a snack, but shy away from the trully apocolyptic stuff.
Even Spike in the early days was willing to shut down Angel for the love of Dru and because he wasn’t evil enough to want the world to end. His comment to Angel that “you made me a monster” wasn’t entirely groundless. Vamps need extra motivation before they graduate from stalking coeds to raising Elder Gods.
I think Soul-having Spike is, and should be good, but I don’t think he should be St. William of Bloody. And really, after a couple of months of being a frustrated ghost, can you blame a fellow for wanting to grab a bit of, ah, sensory input?
Angel and the FG are “good guys”, but they aren’t unambiguously good. They all have their dark sides, that’s what keeps them from being boring.
Also, I think a theme is emerging this season of blurring lines between good and evil. Think throwing Spike into that environment makes for a very interesting dynamic. He’s essentially good, but he still draws his strength from the dark side, and he still really, really hates Angel.
But he’s also bonding with Fred and Gunn (I was really disappointed that Fred didn’t get a hug from Spike- I think that when he got to be all flesh-having again, Fred should have had first hug rights, but instead Gunn got the hug… bummer.)
You mean, as Spike tried to convince himself, to Buffy. That was one of the Season 6 themes: Spike thought he WANTED to be evil, but it was less and less in his character. The one time he actually tried to attack a human that season, he had to spend several minutes talking himself into it, convincing himself that he was downright evil.
By genuinely good guy, I don’t mean a perfect gentleman. But he seemed to have exactly the sort of genuine feelings that vamps aren’t ever supposed to have. His interactions with Dawn, for instance, were generally sincerely kind and protective, even though they weren’t motivated by lust nor even things that Buffy was allowed to know about.
No, as Spike himself amply demonstrated, when he was harboring those demon eggs in “As You Were.”
What is it with you Spike fans? Why do so many people think that because Spike yearned for Buffy and had moments of nobility, this makes him a “genuinely good guy”? A great many evil things have been done in the name of romantic love, people.
Spike. Was. Evil. End of story.
Spike plus Evil equals GOOD!
(I like my men er, vamps bad.)
Okay, here’s a thought I had. I wasn’t gonna bump the thread, but since someone else did…
The thing about the shanshu prophecy is that no one knows which side the vampire with a sould will be fighting on, right? That was Lindsey and Lilah’s project, to try and make Angel crazy enough to get him on their side. Thus, we have stuff like Project Darla, which made Angel crazy all right, but crazy-like-a-fox-who-hates-lawyers.
But now we have Spike. As the debate in this thread is proof of, the line he walks is finer than Angel’s. Angel might have had his soul forced on him and Spike might have fought for his (which was a really interesting point, Spike!), but ANGEL IS GOOD. We know it. The Senior Partners know it. But Spike much, much more of a toss-up. There is a far greater chance that he would pick W&H’s side than Angel.
The Senior Partners want Spike to shanshu.
Still need more info to figure out exactly what Eve and/or Lindsey want, though. I’m sure it’ll all make sense in the end; in Joss I trust.
Kyla, you’re confusing two prophecies. The prophecy that the vampire with a soul would fight in the apocalypse, but on a side yet-to-be-determined, was the working assumption behind W&H’s Project Darla and all the other nefarious schemes W&H launched against Angel over the past four years.
The shanshu prophecy said that the vampire with a soul would someday atone for his sins and be rewarded with humanity. I don’t think it mentioned an apocalypse specifically as the path to atonement, but even if it did, it was unambiguous as to the vampire with a soul’s role in it: it was on the side of good.
If the Senior Partners cared at all about the shanshu prophecy, we’ve never seen onscreen evidence of it before.
I don’t think the Senior Partners had anything to do with Spike showing up at W&H. That was Eve and Lindsey’s doing. Remember the unmarketed package with the amulet. They they made Spike corporeal with the “Spell in the Box” unmarketed package for Spike. Then they intentionally set up the conflict between Angel and Spike in the Opera house.
Lindsey is using Spike to get to Angel and to interfere with the Senior Partner’s plans for Angel. Lindsey has had major issues with them for a while now. Interrupting the conduit and disconnection Gunn from the Senior Partners appeared to be part of the Plan. Otherwise it is just Eve’s word as to what the senior partners want. Don’t forget- the force behind the robo-ninjas is still out there too.
Spike was evil through season six. In season seven that’s when the whole Spike as a champion bit started. Although it did start with him feasting on humans, but hey every plan has a few start-up bumps. Of course, that would mean there was such a thing as Season six and seven and we know those are just silly rumors. Joss just recorded that final episode after The Gift and saved it for us for 2 years while he worked on Firefly.
What about the phych student Buffy fought with, then talked to for almost the entire ep, then staked? The one that knew karate and specifically said that he had taken lessons (as opposed to vamping = karate master.)
Well, what about him, thinksnow? He enjoyed talking to Buffy, but he was still evil and still wanted to kill her.
The psych student (Knox on Angel, ironically) was a tool of The First- remember that was the episode ‘Conversations with Dead People,’ so he wasn’t acting like a ‘normal’ vamp. If he was, Buffy would have staked him right away.
We’ve known since early on what the basic idea of JossVamps are- the episode with Ford has the following quote:
Willow: “And I think I’m kinda gay…”
Buffy: “Remember, the vamp has nothing to do with who you were…”
Angel: “Actually…” interrupted by long glance from Buffy “…that’s right”
In fact, I think that Vamps in the Jossverse show every sign of having a great deal in common with their human counterparts. This has been shown with all the major vamps, throughout both series.
I’m not sure that’s right; I mean, the only link to the First that we had with Holden was that he was sired by Spike, who, at the time, was under the influence of the First. I think Holden was just a normal vamp–with some pyschology classes under his belt.
Was there any indication that he was a tool of the First?
There was none.
Funny, I never considered that the psych student vamp was a tool of The First. I just took it as the only kind of psychological help that Buffy could really deal with.
Hm, I thought for sure they were the same prophecy. I’m all confused now, this might call for a marathon Angelfest.
Darn.
P.S. Isn’t TV on DVD the best thing ever? GOD I love my DVD sets!
I’ve only watched S2, but I’m pretty sure Kyla was right about the shanshu.
From To Shanshu in La
From The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco
It’s one and the same.