Of course Spike was evil. That’s why he gets a redemption story. The question becomes though when the redemption story started. I’d say Intervention, aka, Spike’s first selfless act. Sure there were bumps along the way. Otherwise there wouldn’t have been much of a redemption story…it would have been more of a redemption…moment I guess. But he chose to get a soul because it was the right thing to do and that is canon, and in that moment, he stopped being evil. S7!Spike was a mature, thoughtful good man who fought beside Buffy because he knew it was the right thing to do, who offered his life when he found he was guilty of killing again because it was the right thing to do, who spared Wood’s life because it was the right thing to do, who comforted Buffy and gave her confidence in herself because it was the right thing to do, and who died to save the world because it was the right thing to do.
If Spike hadn’t been evil before, none of that would have been very moving. I’m a sucker for a good redemption story, always have been, always will be, and you can’t have redemption unless there’s something to be redeemed.
Now if you want to get into degrees of evil…well…that’s a different kettle of fish altogether. Of course, I’m agreeing that he was evil because it’s canon. In the Jossverse, soul=free will. I don’t think one can be good or evil without free will but shrug I’m not the God of the Jossverse, so I guess it doesn’t really matter my take on it. I also believe that redemption was possible without the soul—indeed it’s not the soul that redeemed him but rather the desire to fight for it.
Sorry, p’girl. I think I jumped the gun in replying to you.
Anyway, my point was to contest the claim that Apos made – namely, that Spike was a genuinely good guy. Based on your reply, I don’t think you’d take issue with that.
And I appreciate your stating that Spike ceased to be evil when he got his soul. That’s certainly a lot more reasonable than arguing that Spike was non-evil on the grounds that he loved Buffy, left flowers at Joyce’s grave, and other dreck.
pepperlandgirl, you’ve demonstrated with your quotes that shanshu refers to an apocalypse, but not that it’s ambiguous about the vampire with a soul’s role in it. He’s on the side of good.
It was a separate prophecy W&H based their plans on which wasn’t sure what role he vampire would play.
I’m pretty sure that the Shanshu was the same prophecy W&H was working from. They noticed the ambiguity where Angel and co. didn’t (at least, at first).
Remember, Angel stole the prophecy from the hands of W&H, taking a hand in the process.
In an funny way, Spike fits better on Angel then he did on Buffy. Angel as a series has always been about redemption. Giving a person a chance to change has always been an theme on Angel. Watching the Season 2 DVD has really driven that point home.
Once the BVTS writers figured out what the hell the were going to do with Spike, it was Season Seven and the series was stuck with all the First Evil nonsense. So the redemption issue was never really done well. All that screen time wasted on the horrific Kennedy and the band of teenaged merry morons. . . Sigh.
Well anyway, given the better writers on Angel the redemption story should be better deliniated.
I am bumming a bit over the wait for the next episodes though.
Guess I will have to finish Season 2 DVD’s and order Firefly next.
