Another Firearm Question

In My Humble Opinion
1

I’m moving from California to Montana where I am building a house in the woods. We are a good 45 minutes away from any form of law enforcement. That’s got me thinking about getting a gun for protection. I plan to take the appropriate safety courses and to practice shooting so I will hit what I aim at. I want to feel comfortable if the time ever comes to defend myself. While there are no kids in the house I plan to get a gun safe to store the gun when not in use. The house will have an alarm system so I will have some warning should someone try to force entry.

Question # 1. I never even considered getting a gun in California, but being somewhat isolated I feel I need a firearm that can stop an intruder (or deter a bear). At this point I’m not looking to hunt so I don’t want this weapon for hunting. If I decide to take up hunting I will buy a hunting rifle. I’m guessing I need a shotgun but is that the best choice and what kind of ammunition makes the most sense given my situation?

Question #2. I plan on heading into the mountains, often by myself, to go fishing and I would like like to take along a pistol that has enough power to discourage a grizzly bear, bull elk or mountain lion that decides to attack me. I not planning to ever have to use it, but if a large animal decides to charge me I think I need some way to discourage it.

Any suggestions?

2

A gun locked inside a safe ain’t gonna do you much good if you need it in a hurry. My home defense weapon lives right by my bed. I live alone, so there’s no chance of anyone else getting the gun or accidentally dropping it or anything.

Shotguns are ok…but if you have to manuever one inside a house, an attacker that can hide around a corner can disarm you before you ever see him. For home defense purposes, I’d load 00 Buckshot in a shotgun. I’m more of a pistol guy. S&W .357, double action revolver, loaded with hollow points. In a pinch, all I have to do is point and pull the trigger.

For bears, your best bet is not to surprise one. A lot of backpackers/campers in bear country will attach a noisemaker to their belts. Could be jingling keys, or anything that will make noise as you walk. If you really want a pistol, a .357 or a
.45 aren’t bad choices. Big enough to stop most things, but still reasonably comfortable to shoot. Probably not gonna stop a charging grizzly, though. Might discourgage him. A .44 Magnum packs more “oomph”, but those things are not really comfortable to shoot, at least not for me. Also tend to be heavy, and the ammo is expensive. One good thing about a .357 is that you can practice your marksmanship by shooting .38 special ammo…it fits the .357 and is usually cheaper, with less recoil and noise.

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IMO:
12 gage semi-auto, I like Remington. #6 shot, #00 Buck shot & Slugs.

Pistol = revolver = .44 Magnum in a shoulder holster. Learn with regular .44 ammo and then shoot a lot of .44 Mag so you will know what you are dealing with.

Also .22 rifle like a Nylon 66, can be found used.
Also a .22 pistol to practice with so you can afford the ammo.

If you don’t practice — a lot more than you think you need, you’ll be bear breakfast or dead from an intruder. Your brain and your training are much more important then the weapons. If you can’t use them when needed, you are better off with a base ball bat.

Guns that are locked up are not real useful in an intruder situation be it human or bear or other nasty critter with a tude. YMMV

4

One guy I know swears by the method of shouting ‘hello bears’ every other moment. Seems to work, and as long as you’ve got the same sense of humour, isn’t annoying…

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I guess if it’s strictly a defensive hand gun you will want a double action. Ruger makes a very sturdy gun. The Super Redhawk.

I have shot a lot and feel comfortable with the single action guns. I own the Vaquero in a .45 Long Colt. Very sweet.

The great thing about wheel guns is their very good reliability. Load one up and toss it in the nightstand and 10 years later it will be just as ready to fire as the day you put it in.

6

I am much less concerned about bears than I am about someone breaking into my house thinking that I’m not there. The intrusion alarm may scare him off, but let’s say it doesn’t. I grab my shotgun, cock it loudly, and prepare for him to entire my bedroom. The door flies open and he’s about 10 feet away from me. I aim for his body and shoot buck shot at him. Is he likely to be dead, seriously wounded or just really pissed off?

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Dead I’d say. At ten feet just about any size shot could be fatal.

Shot sizes and uses

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At 10 feet, with 00 Buck, he’s prolly gonna have a hole through his chest you could put both your fists through. If that don’t stop him, you ain’t got nothing else that’s gonna. For that matter, if you have a pump shotgun, and he hears you pump one in the chamber, he’s gonna haul ass if he has any sense at all (or is not drugged out of his mind). That sound ain’t mistakable for anything else.

9

Fuck that. If your ready weapon isn’t cocked and locked, you’re a fool. Having a shotgun handy is a good idea, and that would be the weapon I would recommend for home defense, but there should already be a shell in the chamber. Loaded and locked is the way to fly. Condition 2 until you need to kill something.

As for a field weapon…there isn’t a handgun around I would rely on to take out a bear. Not even a Casull. Miss your shot placement by an inch and you’re scat. But needs must when the devil drives, so if you have to pack a handgun, use something with some authority. That means .357 is a base. Go up from there. .44 Special has the force, but I don’t know about the penetration. .44 Magnum works.

10

I’m in more or less the same situation as you. Except in the Colorado Mountains.

No Grizzlies here, but plenty of Black Bears. Pretty harmless all and all, but I do try to scare them away from my property. As much for their safety as mine. I use a .357 for that. Ruger GP 100.

As has been said, you can practice with the cheaper and more forgiving .38 sp. But I always fire off some .357 when I practice so I stay used to it.

11

As it turns out we are moving to a place where there is a known grizzly living in the area. I hope to never run into it, but if I do, and for some reason he feels threatened by me, I don’t want to take any chances.

BTW, I would never intentionally shoot a wild animal unless it was my last and only option to escape. There are a lot more brown bears around than grizzlies and they typically don’t bother you unless you approach them or their cubs. Thanks for the advice on making noise when walking through the forest in order to let bears know you are there. That makes sense since in general I think they would just as soon avoid you if they could.

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12 gauge with rifled slugs is the way to go for grizzly country. Or maybe a .45-70. I used to carry a Marlin lever action in that caliber when I was camping in Alaska. Better to just not encounter a bear in the first place. Make lots of noise and don’t get between a bear and food.

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And in fact is. My sister works surgery and told me several years ago about a woman shot in the chest at close range with a 12 gauge loaded with bird shot. Another woman shot her over a man in a trailer that was being used as a meth lab. Yeah, classic. It must have been a long barrel because fired from apx ten feet the entry wound was about silver dollar sized. Anyway she told me that they actually had to surgically remove the plastic from the wad, as well as the shot, the patient didn’t survive.

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Whatever you get, you must practice with it. Guns aren’t magic talismans that ward off harm by their very presence. Whether against human or animal, you must be able to use your weapon competently under stress. You will fight as you have trained. Plinking at tin cans or paper plates once in a while is not training.
Even in rural Montana, you are far more likely to be attacked by another human than you are to be attacked by a bear. You should, therefore, select a weapon suited to use against humans moreso than use against a bear.
Shotguns have a greater reputation than they deserve as home defense weapons. They are unwieldy for indoor use. Due to muzzle blast and recoil, they make follow-up shots difficult if you have more than one assailant or if you miss. BTW, you can miss easily with a shotgun. At typical self-defense ranges, the shot column isn’t much dispersed and must be aimed as it were a single projectile. Silenus was exactly right about using one chamber empty and trying to scare somebody with the sound of cycling the action. If you decide you want to go with a shotgun, go with one of the semiautomatic models and keep it chamber-loaded with the safety on. Under the stress of attack, it is too easily possible to short-stroke a pump gun. Then, at best, you get a click when you wanted a bang. At worst, you tie the gun up with a not easily cleared jam. Pump guns are also problematic if you lose the use of one arm during an attack.
Carbines using rifle cartridges share many of the drawbacks of shotguns: unwieldy indoors, recoil, muzzle blast, etc. Manually operated variations share the pump shotgun’s shortcomings. Still, especially if you should have to deal with multiple attackers, an intermediate cartridge_like the 5.56 NATO or 7.62 x 39 mm_fired from a good quality, reliable autoloader can be a wonderful thing. Recoil from these rounds is much less than that of a 12 gauge shotgun and it is especially easy to put multiple rounds on target with the 5.56.
Rifles using full size rifle cartridges are also unwieldy indoors, have horrific muzzle blast, recoil, etc. It’s here, though, that you’ll find cartridges more suited to putting down a bear.
There are also autoloading pistol-caliber carbines. Ruger makes a .44 magnum autoloading carbine that is, I think, the most powerful of the breed. Its ammo capacity is pretty limited, though. Other makers provide products in 9mm, .40, and .45 acp. Lever action carbines, which have the drawbacks of manually operated guns I mentioned earlier, are available in .38/.357, .44 magnum, and .45 Colt. All these carbines offer a modest boost in power over a handgun using the same cartridge; most people also find them easier to shoot accurately than a handgun. Recoil is generally pretty modest.
In handguns, you’ll want something of 9mm or greater power level. Anything lower is out of the question. Again assuming humans are the most realistic threat, you’ll want something powerful enough to put a man down but controllable enough to make quick follow-up shots if needed. For most people that means one of the most common cartridges: 9mm, .40, .45 acp, or .38/.357. These cartridges are popular for self-defense exactly because they work.
Autoloader or revolver is strictly a matter of your personal preference. Either will work. I own examples of both and each has its advantages and drawbacks. Buy a good quality example of either one and it will serve you well. If you go with a handgun, buy a good quality holster too. Be prepared to spend some money on it. Cheap holsters are crap. The holster is part of the system; just like the gun and the ammo. It doesn’t make sense to buy a good quality gun, then stoke it with crap ammo that won’t perform adequately or try to carry it in a crap holster that won’t do the things a holster should do.

15

The ranger who shot the grizzly that killed Timothy Treadwell killed it with a handgun, despite the two guys who were with him with shotguns. I can’t Google to find the caliber.

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Sounds like knowledgable advice, all.

As mentioned, by and far the best course of action when in bear country is to make sure you never surprise one. Whistles, clanging of your camp pots, singing, whatever. I always did like GorillaMan mentions and simply kept yelling out “Hey bear… hello bear.” Whatever you do though, keep it up. They can be pretty preoccupied as they root around for food. If you ever hear a cub or smell something rank, slowly back up and clear out of that area entirely.

If you really do feel the need and want to carry a gun, the one they recommended to us in an annual Alaska bear behavior course was using a 12 ga. pump with rifled slugs. I like the Remington 870. Once you take a bear down with shots to the chest and mouth, circle around behind him and start filling his spine with slugs.

You’re going to get some varied advice here as there’s not one catch all solution. A number of different guns and calibers have worked for hunters and outdoorsmen over the years… and some haven’t. Perhaps your best bet, your wisest course of action once you get there would be to take a bear course yourself. No matter how well armed you are in a confrontation, the preferable choice will still always have been complete avoidance altogether. A headstart there is to understand their ways and history, something a course can aquaint you with.

For home protection the 12 ga. will work as well as it did on any bear. However, with no kids around I’d sure simply keep it out of sight, unchambered and pointed in a safe direction but not someplace where it would take a long time to be made available. That strikes me as kinda defeating the purpose. As others have said though, know your gun well so you’ll have the confidence to use it properly.

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This link says Ranger Joel Ellis fired eleven rounds from a handgun, and the other two rangers fired rifled slugs from shotguns at the bear.

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I don’t live in bear country, and the javalena around here aren’t likely to attack you unless they’re rabid.

Here’re my personal/home defense weapons, for whatever it may be worth.

I have a Mossberg 20 gauge with an 18.5" barrel that I keep loaded with #4 buckshot. At home defense distances, you don’t lose much stepping down to 20 instead of 12, and unlike 00 or slugs, #4 does about as much damage but is less likely to exit the body at high velocity or punch through a wall and hit my wife or roommate.

My primary defensive pistol is a Beretta 9mm. Lots of people diss 9mm as a wimpy little handgun, but it’s cheap to shoot, has a variety of defensive loads and is an effective manstopper when you put the bullet in the right spot. Practice, practice practice. Like a well-known shotgun instructor put it, "Grousing between 9mm, .45 or .357 is stupid. They’re all wimpy little handguns. If you want certainty, use a shotgun.

I also have a 4" S&W .357 that I’m quite fond of. It’s good, but my Beretta is an absolute tack driver; I’ve had it much longer and I shoot it with the most reflexively out of any of my guns.

In our “what to do in case of break-in,” I roll out of bed, stick the Beretta in my waistband, grab the Mossberg and go investigate while my wife grabs the S&W and the phone, goes into the closet and calls 911 if I haven’t given her the all clear after 1 minute.

Yes, it’s a good idea to plan what you’re going to do in advance an to practice your plan so that when/if you actually have to do it at 3 a.m. you’re not operating blind.

I mentioned defensive ammo above. Definitely make use of that for a home defense pistol. Frangible hollow points like Federal Hyrda-Shok are much more effective at stopping somebody and much less likely to exit the body or ricochet.

If you get a pistol and are hiking while being concerned about bear, I’d use one of hte larger calibers mentioned above (.357 or bigger) and load it with jacketed soft points to balance between penetration and expansion, all the while hoping against hope I never actually stumbled across an angry bear.

Congrats on escaping Cali. I hope you enjoy Montana.

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Were I to be traversing in grizzly country I’d pack one of these, due to it’s easier carrying size than a longer barreled gun. Then if I saw a bear I’d throw it at him hoping he pulls the trigger thereby killilng itself instantly with the recoil. :slight_smile:

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A SNUBNOSED S&W500?!?!?! :eek: