What’s really Pitworthy here is the lack of originality. Dude! This shit has been done to death since Columbine! (So to speak.) Get a life! (In a manner of speaking.)
Good news anyway about Mr. Bus Guy’s daughter. It’s like with Columbine – bad as it was, it could have been even worse if those explosives in the basement had gone off. Gotta take what you can get.
And now Nancy Grace is going on about how this should really drive home the fact that we need metal detectors and guards in EVERY dorm and building on school campuses.
Yeah, that’s a feasible and smart idea. The main lecture hall at my old alma mater had four direct entrances/exits to outside, plus it was attached to three other buildings either through tunnels or an overhead walkway. There are at least eight ways to get into that building…you gonna put a metal detector at each one? Other buildings have even MORE entrances and exits. Funneling every student/staff/whoever through one doorway to go through a metal detector is moronic. 99% of students have laptops, phones, iPods, and tons of other electronic and metal shit, and anywhere from on e to three bags/purses. You’re going to search and possibly x-ray all of that shit?
[QUOTE=bouv]
And now Nancy Grace is going on about how this should really drive home the fact that we need metal detectors and guards in EVERY dorm and building on school campuses.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t know who Nancy Grace is, but doesn’t she realize what she’s saying about the USA?
I suppose someone will pop in and tell me I’m wrong, but it seems to me that kids used to be safe at school. Safe from madmen with guns, anyway.
[QUOTE=vison]
I suppose someone will pop in and tell me I’m wrong, but it seems to me that kids used to be safe at school. Safe from madmen with guns, anyway.
[/QUOTE]
That’s the unfortunate part- it was always an illusion of safety, and now that nobody is fooled anymore we have people looking to get famous. Because, as we all know, it doesn’t matter what you’re remembered for, just so you’re remembered. :rolleyes:
I say that the media never reports this guy’s name. I say that we let him die in ignominy, with his head in 200 pieces on the ceiling of the building he shot up. he died like a coward, let’s acknowledge that and forget him just as quickly. We do that enough and these sick glory hounds go away.
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
I say that the media never reports this guy’s name.
[/QUOTE]
Somehow, that never seems to work out.
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug]
Too bad we can’t look into the educational system, or even worse, try to figure out what the shooters’ school experiences - NOT just anecdotal attempts at post mortem psychoanalysis - have in common. Because Og forbid we should start taking the academic and social pressure off kids or make schools any more humane and understanding places. There are those who argue they’re too humane now.
[/quote]
I’d be more inclined to look at the shooter’s family life and childhood upbringing, that’s usually where the problems start. Yeah, high school is a crucible, but most high school students DON’T grow up to become mass murderers.
No kidding. What’s really tragic about this incident is that, aside from those directly affected, it will be all but forgotten in a few weeks. Heck, even Virginia Tech was off the national radar within a month. It’s almost like we’re willing to accept these shootings as an inevitable part of our post-Columbine society, rather than closely examine the reasons for why they happen in the first place, especially since the “simple” answers – like Marilyn Manson, violent video games, black trenchcoats, even Prozac – have been ruled out.
On the other hand, if the killer had used a BOMB instead of a gun…
[QUOTE=vison]
Safe from madmen with guns, anyway.
[/QUOTE]
My father carried a .22 rifle to high school every day. He propped it in the corner and kept the ammo in his pocket. No one was ever shot. This would have been the mid to late 40s.
I think the operative word in the above quote is “madmen”.
Glad your daughter and her friends are OK, Mr Bus Guy.
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
I say that the media never reports this guy’s name. I say that we let him die in ignominy, with his head in 200 pieces on the ceiling of the building he shot up.
[/QUOTE]
Nice idea but, sad to say, it ain’t gonna happen. The national media lives for this kind of shit. They love having a boogeyman to parade around the prime time hour, especially now that OBL & terrorism have all but played themselves out.
On the other hand, it’s kind of a moot point. As I said previously, this guy will be forgotten in due time. Does anybody remember the name of that guy who shot up that Omaha shopping mall just before Christmas? Or the Amish school shooting from a few years ago? I’m not convinced that “being remembered” is a big motive for these psychotic individuals anyway…at least, not anymore. Too much noise out there.
BTW, Mr Bus Guy, glad to hear everyone’s okay – or at least as “okay” as can be expected at this time.
Pardon the off-the-wall tangent, but how many Americans have been killed in this kind of multiple shooting since 9/11?
Homeland Security might be protecting us from terrorists, but we need someone to protect us from ourselves!
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
What’s really Pitworthy here is the lack of originality. Dude! This shit has been done to death since Columbine! (So to speak.) Get a life! (In a manner of speaking.)
[/QUOTE]
One of the things that makes this so surreal for me is that I sat and watched the live news coverage from Columbine in my dorm room at Neptune West, no more than 250 or so yards from the auditorium in which this all took place.
[QUOTE=blondebear]
Pardon the off-the-wall tangent, but how many Americans have been killed in this kind of multiple shooting since 9/11?
[/QUOTE]
My guess is…less than 100. This is exactly what I mean by people being really bad at risk analysis. More people have choked to death on a tooth pick than have been killed in these kinds of shooting sprees on high school AND college campuses.
[QUOTE=blondebear]
Homeland Security might be protecting us from terrorists, but we need someone to protect us from ourselves!
[/QUOTE]
Fear not…Big Brother is trying to do just that. I’m sure that eventually you’ll get your wish…
-XT
**xtisme ** your crude simplistic analysis is fucked up for at least two reasons.
Firstly, you are comparing causes of deaths with no consideration of the benefits that the same cause might bring. Your analysis would find equivalence between (say) an extremely useful and beneficial tool and a silly and useless child’s toy, because they both cause 10 deaths a year. Which is stupid.
Secondly, you are comparing causes that carry a risk of your own death to causes that carry a risk of killing someone else. Which in any argument in which regulation is an issue is beyond dumbass.
I don’t live in your country and don’t care. Plus I think that the whole gun control thing comes down to certain value judgments that cannot be easily resolved through rational debate. But I’m really not sure what to make of the the fact that such fucking stupid arguments are so often raised by the pro-gun side of the debate. I don’t know whether the pro-gun lobby is infested with an unfortunate number of idiots, or you don’t want to debate the issue on its true merits because you think that might not work out so well or what.
What I want to know is, how many school/workplace/mall shooters are members of the NRA? I mean, how many are trained to use guns, trained in gun safety, acquainted with people who’ve used guns for a positive purpose (and don’t say there’s no such thing)? The NRA always takes a beating when these things happen, but I’m not convinced that educating people about guns is a bad thing. It might actually prevent some of these incidents.
[QUOTE=Princhester]
xtisme your crude simplistic analysis is fucked up for at least two reasons.
[/QUOTE]
What can I say? If you are to stupid to get it you are to stupid to get it. C’est la vie.
[QUOTE=Princhester]
Firstly, you are comparing causes of deaths with no consideration of the benefits that the same cause might bring.
[/QUOTE]
Benefits are subjective. What is a benefit to you may not be to me…and vice versa. If I’m a Luddite then I might question the worth of the car, for instance. If I’m against religion (or just think it’s stupid) I might question the risk of putting up decorations at Christmas or whatever around the house…or what benefit one might derive verse the risk of doing so.
I realize this is probably over your head (or that you are simply to hostile to think it through more likely) but because YOU think something is beneficial doesn’t mean others agree…and vice versa. Thus you are quite correct…I didn’t take such a stupid thing into account when I looked objectively at the ACTUAL risks.
[QUOTE=Princhester]
Your analysis would find equivalence between (say) an extremely useful and beneficial tool and a silly and useless child’s toy, because they both cause 10 deaths a year.
[/QUOTE]
Who decides a tool is beneficial? You? Me? Who decides a child’s toy is useless? What does risk have to do with subjectively looking at some phantom benefit?
[QUOTE=Princhester]
Which is stupid.
[/QUOTE]
You keep saying that as if it makes it so. Since you’ve taken such a hostile tone I will return the favor…the analysis isn’t stupid, you are. I’m not attempting to make a subjective value judgment as, well, that really WOULD be stupid. Since it is going to vary from person to person.
[QUOTE=Princhester]
Secondly, you are comparing causes that carry a risk of your own death to causes that carry a risk of killing someone else.
[/QUOTE]
Not that it matters (i.e. who gives a fuck?) but if I drink and drive, say, that carries the risk of death to not just me but to others as well. Thus, by your reasoning, we should outlaw alcohol…because there is a very definite risk that if I use the substance I could cause harm to others. In fact, there is a GREATER risk, probability wise, that if I drink I WILL cause harm to others than the risk of weapons.
Per chance, could you tell me what are the ‘benefits’ to society of intoxicants again? Since said ‘benefits’ seem so important to you and all.
[QUOTE=Princhester]
Which in any argument in which regulation is an issue is beyond dumbass.
[/QUOTE]
Um…right. Sure thing chief…
[QUOTE=Princhester]
I don’t know whether the pro-gun lobby is infested with an unfortunate number of idiots, or you don’t want to debate the issue on its true merits because you think that might not work out so well or what.
[/QUOTE]
Riiighhhtt…
-XT
Comfort and condolences to you and yours, Mr. Bus Guy, you are good folks and I am relieved to hear no harm came to your daughter. I am very sorry to hear, however, that this fucker killed and hurt innocent people. That is sad, indeed.
Take care, and give your daughter a hug for me.
[QUOTE=xtisme]
Thus you are quite correct…I didn’t take such a stupid thing into account when I looked objectively at the ACTUAL risks.
[/quote]
Exactly. You only take into account actual risks of death and act like this is some sort of complete argument. Let me give you another example:
There are about 40,000 or more motor vehicle deaths in the US annually. There are about 25,000 or less homicides. So the actual risk of getting killed in a motor vehicle accident is higher than that of being murdered. Are you stupid enough to think this amounts to any sort of argument that murder should be legal? Of course not. But your argument in this thread amounts to this. There is much, much more to this debate than simply the absolute risk of being killed in a school shooting.
Hah. I knew you’d try this particular weasel. Check out your post #37 in which you quote extensively concerning the health risks of drinking to the individual drinking. And yes, I do know you also quoted stuff about risks to third parties, but don’t pretend you didn’t also quote about self inflicted risk.
Mr Bus Guy, I’m glad to hear your daughter is alright, and I extend my sympathies to all those who were less fortunate today.
[QUOTE=bouv]
And now Nancy Grace is going on about how this should really drive home the fact that we need metal detectors and guards in EVERY dorm and building on school campuses.
[/QUOTE]
This is what really gets to me.
Every now and then, a few people die because some sad cretin decides to shuffle off this mortal coil and drag a few innocents with him – and the proposed solution is to turn our campuses and our streets into locked-down prison-type facilities with checkpoints at every door?
I’ll keep my freedom, thanks. I’d rather risk the bullets than see morons continue to suggest these unacceptable assaults on personal liberty.
There’s a bill in my state legislature that would force all public colleges to allow concealed carry on campus; it’s currently in limbo after not being passed out of a committee, despite overwhelming public support at the committee hearing for the bill (I took the trek from the UW to Olympia to testify at the hearing myself)… Perhaps now our legislators will realize the ultimate impotence of gun-free zones, but I’m not holding my breath.
[QUOTE=Princhester]
Exactly. You only take into account actual risks of death and act like this is some sort of complete argument.
[/QUOTE]
Well…yeah. It does. Since that was the point I was trying to make, that WOULD be my complete argument. Sure, I could add some more things…but at the base I’m commenting on people in ability to judge risk in their lives.
[QUOTE=Princhester]
There are about 40,000 or more motor vehicle deaths in the US annually. There are about 25,000 or less homicides.
[/QUOTE]
I’m getting 42,643 deaths due to automobiles (2003 numbers) with a figure of ‘the total number of car accidents was 6,328,000 and the resulting injuries stood at almost 3 million’. So…6 million accidents resulting in 42,000 deaths and nearly 3 million injuries.
To make it interesting I’m getting a figure of 85,000 deaths related to alcohol and 435,000 deaths due to tobacco (2000 figures).
For firearms (including suicide and accidental discharge of weapon…I believe they left out liberal anti-gun nut apoplexy in threads like this one) the figure is 28,000. In every category listed firearms were at the bottom of the list.
[QUOTE=Princhester]
So the actual risk of getting killed in a motor vehicle accident is higher than that of being murdered.
[/QUOTE]
Nearly double…yes. And quite a bit more if I drink alcohol or smoke or stuff my arteries with cholesterol.
[QUOTE=Princhester]
Are you stupid enough to think this amounts to any sort of argument that murder should be legal?
[/QUOTE]
Well, you seem to think I’m stupid enough to accept that raggedy straw man you want to pin on me. Since that wasn’t that argument, it’s kind of a silly question on your part.
[QUOTE=Princhester]
But your argument in this thread amounts to this.
[/QUOTE]
That’s how you see it, ehe? Well…that’s interesting.
[QUOTE=Princhester]
There is much, much more to this debate than simply the absolute risk of being killed in a school shooting.
[/QUOTE]
To be sure…I figured the goal posts would need to be moved at some point.
[QUOTE=Princhester]
Hah. I knew you’d try this particular weasel. Check out your post #37 in which you quote extensively concerning the health risks of drinking to the individual drinking.
[/QUOTE]
What is your point? I was addressing a specific thing there. Is it your contention that alcohol doesn’t pose dangers beyond the one who is drinking it? If not…well, would you like to explain why you think you ‘got me’ on this?
[QUOTE=Princhester]
And yes, I do know you also quoted stuff about risks to third parties, but don’t pretend you didn’t also quote about self inflicted risk.
[/QUOTE]
Um…ok. I won’t pretend. Drinking has the potential to harm the drinker as well as others. I’m curious what you think this proves (from your perspective)…
-XT
mmm…the swiss have more readily available guns. No school shootings though.
[QUOTE=bdgr]
mmm…the swiss have more readily available guns. No school shootings though.
[/QUOTE]
Heck, Utah has allowed students to carry at all public colleges and universities since 2006. No mass shootings or epidemic of gun accidents there either.