Another game of, "who is right/wrong?"

In My Humble Opinion
1

I’ll try to describe an interpersonal dynamic involving 3 adults, and would appreciate your thoughts as to what you think reasonable/unreasonable on behalf of the 3 persons. The parties are spouse 1 and spouse2 (married to each other), and sibling of spouse2. All persons are in their 60s. Spouse1 and sibling are employed. Spouse2 is not. Spouse2 and sibling regularly engage in athletic activity 2-3x a week during the day, for 2-3 hrs at a time as sibling’s work schedule permits.

Spouse1 is thinking about retirement and has recently begun taking days off of work without discussing ahead of time with spouse2 which days are being taken off. A couple of Fridays a month. Just to manage their vacation time. Spouse1 does not believe spouse2 should engage in planned activities with sibling on days spouse1 takes off work. This is whether or not the spouses have any particular plans for that day. Spouse2 and sibling’s activity can take place between 8-1030 a.m., leaving the spouses the rest of the day. Or from 2-4:30, if the spouses prefer the morning together. Whether it matters or not, spouse2 maintains a wonderful home for the 2 of them, and the activity with sibling is one of their favorite things to do. Sibling also greatly enjoys the activity.

Finally, to provide more context, as I said, spouse1 is considering retiring within the next year. Spouse2 is somewhat concerned that spouse1 may expect spouse2 to “entertain” spouse1 when spouse1 retires.

So, what do you think? Is spouse1 reasonable or not? Should spouse2 simply go along w/ spouse1, or not? Should there be a compromise of some sort? Should sibling express any opinion or just let the spouses figure it out?

I’ll provide more specifics as desired, but wanted to provide the bare basics to start.

2

Why? Unless there’s some reason for this you haven’t given, I don’t see how this is a reasonable belief.

3

Just to clarify. S1 wakes up Friday morning and with no forewarning tells S2 to cancel plans with Sibling because they decided to stay home that day?

4

I dont much care for the “who’s right / who’s wrong” formulation. That framing probably doesn’t lead towards harmony.

Clearly there are different degrees of marital togetherness that couples habitually use.

Some people want the couple to do everything together and nearly nothing separately, except when forced to be separate by the inevitable and mostly uncontrollable need for work. Other couples operate much more independently with largely separate sets of friends, hobbies, and schedules, plus some together time. When both members of a couple use the same approach, either Door #1 or Door #2, the result can be a happy couple. But it gets troublesome when one couple contains the two kinds of people.

It sounds like spouse 1 is a member of group 1 and spouse 2 is a member of group 2. It’s disturbing that this discrepancy is coming to light only now, but if the non-working spouse has been so for many years, while the working spouse has also had long work hours for many years, this discrepancy may have been well-hidden by that work. Until now when the work waters have started to recede and the rock that was always there is now sticking up out of the shallower water.

Bottom line: I think the exercise meet-up with the sib is merely one example of what may be a much larger and rather foundational relationship issue these folks will need to sort out.

Retirement is a big change for the person doing it and for the person married to the person doing it. In a couple, there’s a bigger change with the second-to-retire vs. the first-to-retire.


I personally am dealing with all this myself right now plus the added complexity of being newly married despite being nearly at retirement age. Our own expectations aren’t very far apart, but they are different in ways that are novel to both of us.

5

More like on a Wed, Sp1 decides to take that Friday off, which they tell Sp2 at Wed dinner. But Friday is the only day that week Sp2 and sib had to exercise that week. Sp 1 has no plans for that Fri, but wants Sp2 to be free, “just in case.”

And instead of right/wrong, feel free to discuss the dynamics. And, in case you wondered - I’m sibling, I like to ride bikes with my older sis - Spouse 2, and Spouse 1 is my BIL. Whom I generally get along with just fine, including golfing most Sundays.

6

Putting a charitable spin on it, Spouse1 may be thinking that these days off are like a test-drive for retirement; what will they do all day together if Spouse1 isn’t going to work? But that being said, scheduling such days without any consideration of Spouse2’s plans is pretty mean. And it doesn’t even matter what those plans are, so Sibling doesn’t really enter into it.

Were I Spouse2, I’d sit down and have a serious chat with Spouse1 about this aspect of it. Yes, we can spend time together - but my requirements must be taken into consideration. If there’s a reason to change my plans, that’s one thing, but just “Wake up and see what happens”? No, I’ve got shit to do.

7

Unless S1 and S2 have made definite plans for Friday, the day is up for grabs for both of them. If sibling and S2 have made it a usual thing to do something on Fridays, and it sounds like this is the case, then unless S1 specifically calls out they want to do something with S2 on that day, S2 should go ahead with the usual plans. However, it also sounds like there may be a communication/expectation gap in play now, so it probably would be considerate for S2 to tell S1 at the start of each week if usual Friday plans with sibling are on or not.

During the warmer/drier months, I go for a 2-4 hour bike ride every Saturday morning. It’s a usual thing/not new, and unless my wife makes other plans for us (and lets me know about them, which then moves my ride to Sunday) it’s automatic that I am out riding Saturday mornings. No questions asked, no expectations unmanaged. And that is the trick here: managing expectations.

The whole thing about what S1 will be doing during retirement is another can of worms.

8

I think S1 and S2 need to have a talk. (And you, as Sibling, should stay out of it.) It does sound as if S1 is planning on being “entertained” by S2 after retirement, at least some of the time, and that S1 gets to decide when those times will be.

Does S1 do half the household chores? If not, starting to do that after retirement will soak up quite a bit of time. True, it won’t be fun, but S2 can present it as “That will free up time for me to spend doing fun things with you.” Maybe they can do some of the activities together.

9

As above, doesn’t matter who is right; they have to have a talk. I will opine that it is a bit presumptuous for Spouse 1 to expect Spouse 2 will clear their schedule last minute on Spouse 1’s whims. I would never expect that of my spouse, and I doubt my spouse would expect that of me. But everyone’s situation and expectations are clearly different, hence a talk.

10

They definitely need to have a talk - but I don’t necessarily think it has to do with who wants more togetherness or Spouse 1 expecting Spouse 2 to entertain him after retirement. I think it might have to do with something a little different - when I was getting ready to retire, I was taking off random days to use up vacation time* and I didn’t discuss which days with my husband in advance. I chose days to have as little effect on my co-workers as possible and that would allow me to keep up my work without falling behind. My husband got a little annoyed because he wanted to go on a weekend trip on a couple of weeks notice which would have required me to take Friday off - and I couldn’t because I had already asked and gotten coverage and approval for other days. But it wasn’t because he was more interested in spending time with me than I was with him, and it wasn’t because he was going to want me to entertain him - I was the one who was retiring, not him. It was really just a reflection of the fact that for the last 30 years I’ve worked for the government , had more vacation time than him and had an easier time scheduling it than he did and this was very possibly the first time in all those years I couldn’t/wouldn’t take a day off when he wanted me to. Our plans normally depended on when he could take time off - and for this couple of months, they didn’t.

I don’t think “presumptuous” is quite the right word, because I think it might not be entirely intentional. But it seems to me that Spouse 2 also doesn’t tell Spouse 1 when she has plans with the sibling - otherwise wouldn’t Spouse 1 have taken Monday or Thursday or the next Friday off? If Spouse 1 knew about the plans for Friday and decided to take off and ask Spouse 2 to keep Friday open anyway, that’s a different issue. But I know I don’t inform my husband of everything I have planned when he will be at work and maybe Spouse 2 doesn’t either.

* I would get a lump sum payment for up to 30 days , but had to take any days over 30 before my official retirement date. Which meant I was taking random days off for a couple of months.

11

Is the OP Spouse2 in this scenario?

I don’t think we really need all the backstory here. The bottom line is Spouse2 has a regular activity they like do with their sibling and Spouse1 thinks they have right of first refusal over Spouse1’s schedule for what I presume is a more or less open-ended itinerary. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Spouse2 to say “I have this regular thing so we can either hang out afterwards or choose a different day off from work.”

12

No. They’re the sibling. I think a good long talk is in order for Spouse 1-2. Expectations need to be managed before things go too much farther.

13

That’s pretty much my feeling.

It is awkward, tho, because it did piss me off the last time he did this, and we missed the only bike ride we could do that week (due to schedules and weather). Whereas he COULD have taken Thurs off, when I couldn’t bike. But I don’t want to rag on my BIL to my sister, or complain to him when we are driving to golf together.

My sister loves to do all manner of things w/ her husband, but she also Iikes to do things on her own. The impression is that BIL wants her to be available for together time pretty much at his whim. She doesn’t know what he is going to do to fill his time when retired, and fears he is going to expect her to be his constant playmate.

And yes, they bike together. But my sister is incredibly fit, and cannot go as long and hard as she and I like to.

When she mentioned it to him after the last time, he said, “Fine! You do whatever the hell you want and I’ll do whatever the hell I want.” Which my sister was basically fine with. :wink: He took 3 Fridays off in a row. Last Friday we didn’t bike. Tomorrow we will. We’ll see how it goes next week…

14

It doesn’t sound like anybody’s done anything past some hurt feelings or one type or another, so at least count your blessings in that regard. It doesn’t sound like dysfunction to me. I think S1 ought to have the right of first refusal on those days off, but should have some plan in place for what to do with that time, not just an open-ended “this time is mine but I don’t know what I’m going to do with it” slot in the schedule. This seems like something they should be able to talk out.

15

This is quite common thing for women to experience when their husbands retire. For the generation before us, it was expected.

16

If the exercise is a long-standing thing, then I think spouse one, who wants to make a change, needs to put at least some effort into working around it.

17

Like I’ve said, everything considered he really is a nice guy. The 2 of them live a mile from us in our same town, are pretty high on my wife and my pretty short list of people we like (and can stand), and seem to reciprocate! :wink: I really don’t want to piss him off or introduce even minor unpleasantness into their relationship. And they’ve been married over 40 years and raised 4 fine kids, so something obviously works OK. The way I see it, the issues are likely:
-he is somewhat “needy” in some respects;
-he is likely “traditionally patriarchal” in some respects;
-he doesn’t perceive inconsistencies in how he acts and what he expects of my sister.

One story that really stuck with me, was from when they were on a weekend trip to Wisconsin. As my sister described it, they played 9 holes of golf, went on a long bike ride, and had a nice breakfast and lunch together. At 3 pm, his favorite pro football team was playing, and he wanted to watch it in a bar with the local fans of the other team (Bears vs Packers). My sister (and I) have ZERO interest in pro sports. It was a wonderful afternoon, and my sister was FINE with him watching the game in a bar. Her preference was to sit outside somewhere and read a book. Instead of appreciating how much time they had already spent together tat day, he really got his nose out of joint - was hurt - that she didn’t want to sit inside a bar and watch a football game with him.

Such behavior is so foreign to me (and my wife.). We love to do things together, but then we also love it when each other goes off and does their own thing.

Like I said, he and I play golf every Sunday weather permits. (While we golf, my sister bikes.) And he loves to watch pro baseball, and pro and college football. He has said the ONLY thing that would make him love his wife more is if she would have a beer while watching sports on TV with him. Well, guess what? She doesn’t drink beer, and has ZERO interest in sports. But she doesn’t in any way resent his watching sports and having a few beers either. It seems so inconsistent that he somewhat feels our bike riding is taking away from his “us” time, but he doesn’t see HIS golf/sports watching the same way.

He seems to get so much satisfaction from his job (unlike me), that I seriously question why he is planning on retiring. But he is closing in on 70 and his job - software engineer - is pretty much a younger person’s game. I’m thinking he will likely end up doing some pt-time consulting or something, because I just can’t imagine how else he will fill his time w/o driving my sister crazy.

When he and my sister were discussing possibly downsizing, #1 on my sister’s list of “wants” was a location where she could keep biking regularly with me. Just to show how important it is to her. Really made me feel good as well. It is so foreign to me that BIL does not value such a healthy interest that is so important to her. We are flexible in passing on our rides when anything important comes up, but we DO treat it as a sorta important standing date, that shouldn’t be blown off just on a whim - especially if the whim could easily be accommodated at some other time. My wife and I each have a few such “standing obligations.” Same way he would just as soon watch virus sports live.

18

Retirement and the adjustments it requires is a very real concern, and there can be a lot of problems if it isn’t mapped out to the satisfaction of both parties. I think spouse1 is absurd in his expectations. If he thinks it is the duty of his wife to entertain him, then he is not psychologically ready for a healthy retirement.

Things he should have already thought about and had better think about now are the activities and hobbies that need to fill all the time that used to be spent at work. Perhaps he could actually join his spouse and her sibling even if it is only once a week. He could take up a new hobby or restart a hobby he gave up because he never had time for. Perhaps they might even pursue counseling.

19

About that drinking a beer and watching sports - is it that he wants her to drink a beer while watching sports with him in the living room or in their hotel room or is there always a bar involved? Not that I think it’s an alcohol thing - but if there’s always a bar involved (because that’s where a TV with the sports package is available) it might be related to not wanting to go to the bar alone. On the other hand, if he wants her to sit in the living room drinking beer and watching sports with him and wouldn’t be satisfied if she sat in the living room reading a book and drinking iced tea, I think that’s very strange and probably a bigger issue that has little or nothing to do with spending time together.

20

Sp1 needs to learn to entertain himself. That’s an unreasonable burden to put on sp2.

But then again I’m 51 and single. So what do I know?