Another pronunciation pitting

[Hellestal]

@A.I.Wintermute

Hostile Dialect, dude, I’m a big fan of linguistics and all but you’re doing us no favors.

Re-reading the latest series of posts, I’m gonna hafta agree with this.

And I say this believing that a large degree of harshness was fully appropriate earlier in the thread, when the same absurd positions were being mindlessly repeated. But that has not been the case with InvisibleWombat later in this thread, and that should be acknowledged.

[Hostile_Dialect]

@Kendall Jackson

Re-reading the latest series of posts, I’m gonna hafta agree with this.

And I say this believing that a large degree of harshness was fully appropriate earlier in the thread, when the same absurd positions were being mindlessly repeated. But that has not been the case with InvisibleWombat later in this thread, and that should be acknowledged.

We’ll have to agree to disagree, but I’ll watch from the sidelines on this one.

[Hostile_Dialect]

@Kendall Jackson

Re-reading the latest series of posts, I’m gonna hafta agree with this.

And I say this believing that a large degree of harshness was fully appropriate earlier in the thread, when the same absurd positions were being mindlessly repeated. But that has not been the case with InvisibleWombat later in this thread, and that should be acknowledged.

We’ll have to agree to disagree, but I’ll watch from the sidelines on this one.

[Find_Friends]

@tdn

It didn’t occur to me until recently how very wrong the Gilligan’s Island theme song was.

Who the hell is Robinson Caruso?

Maybe it’s just like the “Henry the Eighth” song…
*
Hen-er-y the Eighth I am I am-

Hen-er-y the Eighth I am I am!*

• “Jack”

[wolf_meister]

I think I searched this thread pretty well and I have not seen this one mentioned yet:
NASA being pronounced as Nassau. :mad:

[put_down_the_sabre]

@wolf_meister

I think I searched this thread pretty well and I have not seen this one mentioned yet:
NASA being pronounced as Nassau. :mad:

It bothers you that people have a different accent? In that case, I think all Americans sound like idiots … maybe you should change to speak like me?

pdts

[wolf_meister]

put down the sabre
Sorry but I think there comes a point where something is a pronunciation difference and something is just totally incorrect. Pronouncing “NASA” as “Nassau” is totally incorrect.
Whenever I watch news broadcasts on TV and the reporters say “NOOK-YOU-LAR” or “Nassau” (when referring to the space agency), I send an E-Mail to that station or network. Amazing that the next day, that reporter isn’t making that mistake. Heck, it’s just one E-Mail (but I’m sure I’m not the only one who sends these), but isn’t it funny that in just one day how NASA gets stated correctly?

[Indistinguishable]

There’s a bit of an ambiguity here. When you say “Nassau”, do you mean for the last syllable to rhyme with “cow” or with “law” or with “bra” or what, exactly?

Also, more generally, I’m a little curious about your native accent (as well as which broadcasters you listen to), but your location field is not very helpful, at least in this regard. Where are you from?

[wolf_meister]

Yes, my location is stated rather ambiguously.
A poem written about Boston a long time ago, made fun of the various characteristics of the area and the final line was “where even the owls say ‘whom’.”
So, I’m from Boston.

[Indistinguishable]

Ah. What’s the poem called?

[Find_Friends]

@Kendall Jackson

Prescriptivism doesn’t just have a bad reputation in this thread. It has a bad reputation among most language experts. But it is true that prescriptivism is not automatically off base.

The problem: I have never in my life come across a self-described prescriptivist who knew enough about language to provide consistently accurate advice about how language should be used. The random people on the street (or on this message board) drop inaccurate statements just about every time they let loose with a language opinion. And even usage “mavens”, whose advice is sometimes excellent, have large holes in their knowledge that result in many inaccuracies.

A good prescriptivist would ideally be like a good architect. They’d be mostly interested in aesthetics. Sure, they’d know enough about the structure of things to keep their edifice from falling, but they wouldn’t presume to claim that their own beliefs are the end-all and be-all for putting the pieces together. They wouldn’t have such swollen egos that they’d claim there is one and only right way to build a building, and they most certainly would not make a habit of telling any nearby engineers that they’re full of shit.

But that’s just not what happens with language. The overwhelming majority of prescriptivists are ignorant, disrespectful to experts, and incapable of keeping their mouths shut about things they don’t understand.

Hear, hear!

I especially like and relate to your final four paragraphs quoted here. I can tell you several horror stories about various pseudo-intellectuals I have met in my lifetime. (I’m thinking that “auto-prescriptivism” is a good word for what they show.) But it’s often the least of their problems. Their view of the world usually is full of far worse misconceptions.

And in the case of individuals such as this, one’s high opinion of self is exactly where reform is most needed.

• “Jack”

[put_down_the_sabre]

@wolf_meister

put down the sabre
Sorry but I think there comes a point where something is a pronunciation difference and something is just totally incorrect. Pronouncing “NASA” as “Nassau” is totally incorrect.

Maybe there is, maybe there isn’t. But supposing there is such a point, who decides where it is?

Maybe I think that your Americanisms are clearly past that point? ‘parking lot’ … come ON! Do you have to draw lots to park there?

pdts

[pulykamell]

@wolf_meister

I think I searched this thread pretty well and I have not seen this one mentioned yet:
NASA being pronounced as Nassau. :mad:

Is this a common mispronunciation? I don’t recall ever hearing it. So, do they pronounce it like “NASS-aw” instead of “NASS-uh”?

[sundog66]

@wolf_meister

Pronouncing “NASA” as “Nassau” is totally incorrect.

Do you have any evidence for this? Or is it just your personal opinion about The Way Things Ought To Be?

I ask because you go on to say that you’ve heard this pronunciation in news broadcasts, which doesn’t really support your assertion.

[wolf_meister]

Indistinguishable
I did some Internet searching but couldn’t track down that poem. (I’ll keep looking of course).

For those of you that don’t seem to be as upset as I am about “NASA” or “nuclear” mispronunciations, here’s what Phil ‘the Bad Astronomer’ Plaitt (a former Straight Dope member) has to say about it, in his review of the movie “Doomsday Rock.”

A military advisor to the President pronounced “NASA” as “Nassau”. I’d think someone of his authority would know the difference between a multi-billion dollar agency and the capital city of the Commonwealth of the Bahamas. At least I never heard the word “nuc-you-ler” during the movie.

Heck he even mentions another mispronunciation that I think has not been mentioned as yet.

An astronomer mentioned Halley’s comet, but pronounced it “Hay-lee”. Every astronomer I know pronounces it “Hal-lee”

As far as these mispronunciations go, I have heard these on local (Boston) and national TV broadcasts. Shortly thereafter, I send E-Mails their way.

[Hostile_Dialect]

The Bad Astronomer is an expert on astronomy, not language. It’s disappointing, but not surprising, that he is, like many Dopers, delusional about his own expertise in the field of linguistics. It also proves nothing.

[sundog66]

A military advisor to the President pronounced “NASA” as “Nassau”. I’d think someone of his authority would know the difference between a multi-billion dollar agency and the capital city of the Commonwealth of the Bahamas.

Well by that reasoning, I must not know the difference between sloping land alongside a river and a financial institution, because I call both “bank”. Homophony does not imply synonymy.

The standards of reasoning employed by the otherwise educated in discussion of language are mind-bogglingly low.

[BwanaBob]

@sundog66

Well by that reasoning, I must not know the difference between sloping land alongside a river and a financial institution, because I call both “bank”. Homophony does not imply synonymy.

The standards of reasoning employed by the otherwise educated in discussion of language are mind-bogglingly low.

While I agree with the second half of your comment, your counter-example is rather poor. You say “bank” to both because the same spelling is used for both no-one pronounces the word differently depending on its context. NASA and Nassau are distinguishable by the fact that they are spelled differently and supposedly pronounced differently (they are around my neck of the woods anyway).
Consider this: in the past, before we had such a massive communications infrastructure, a “mispronunciation” had to really be natural in order to catch on enough to become widespread or common. If it were bothersome it would probably be suppressed in its tracks by the local educators. It would not spread.

But now with mass media, telephony, internet, it is easy to expose a “mispronunciation” to millions of potential spreaders. Snoop Dawg says “Be-otch” for bitch and a million of his fans use it and make it common place. If he were just a street bum in 1875, someone would have told him to shut up and pronounce it correctly. End of be-otch. Today, Prescriptivists have too big a task of stopping such things from catching on; like putting your fingers in the dyke, the flood still comes.

[Acsenray]

@BwanaBob

While I agree with the second half of your comment, your counter-example is rather poor. You say “bank” to both because the same spelling is used for both no-one pronounces the word differently depending on its context. NASA and Nassau are distinguishable by the fact that they are spelled differently and supposedly pronounced differently (they are around my neck of the woods anyway).

Spelling has never been a basis for identifying “correct” pronunciation in English.

Consider this: in the past, before we had such a massive communications infrastructure, a “mispronunciation” had to really be natural in order to catch on enough to become widespread or common. If it were bothersome it would probably be suppressed in its tracks by the local educators. It would not spread.

But now with mass media, telephony, internet, it is easy to expose a “mispronunciation” to millions of potential spreaders. Snoop Dawg says “Be-otch” for bitch and a million of his fans use it and make it common place. If he were just a street bum in 1875, someone would have told him to shut up and pronounce it correctly. End of be-otch. Today, Prescriptivists have too big a task of stopping such things from catching on; like putting your fingers in the dyke, the flood still comes.

This “history” of the development of alternative pronunciations seems to be entirely fictional.

[sundog66]

@BwanaBob

While I agree with the second half of your comment, your counter-example is rather poor. You say “bank” to both because the same spelling is used for both no-one pronounces the word differently depending on its context.

This is false. I pronounce both as “bank” because they are pronounced the same, not because they are spelled the same. Just like I pronounce “pair”, “pear” and “pare” the same even though they are not spelled the same.

NASA and Nassau are distinguishable by the fact that they are spelled differently and supposedly pronounced differently (they are around my neck of the woods anyway).

Yes, just like “pair”, “pear” and “pare” are distinguishable by the fact that they are spelled differently. But, at least in my dialect of English, they are also pronounced the same way. And nobody gets in a huff over it. People do get in a huff over “NASA” and “Nassau” being pronounced the same way, as evidenced by this very thread, but my point is that the reason people get upset over “NASA” being pronounced “Nassau” is not reducible either to the fact that the two words are spelled differently or to the fact that they have different meanings. Otherwise you would expect the same upset over “pair” and “pear” and “pare”.

Consider this: in the past, before we had such a massive communications infrastructure, a “mispronunciation” had to really be natural in order to catch on enough to become widespread or common. If it were bothersome it would probably be suppressed in its tracks by the local educators. It would not spread.

But now with mass media, telephony, internet, it is easy to expose a “mispronunciation” to millions of potential spreaders. Snoop Dawg says “Be-otch” for bitch and a million of his fans use it and make it common place. If he were just a street bum in 1875, someone would have told him to shut up and pronounce it correctly. End of be-otch. Today, Prescriptivists have too big a task of stopping such things from catching on; like putting your fingers in the dyke, the flood still comes.

That’s an interesting idea, although my first inclination is to say that you’re overestimating the power of mass communication infrastructure in shaping language. Again, this is just an intuition; we would need actual data to say one way or the other, and even deciding what data is relevant would be a massive task in itself.