“Matches the spelling” is completely spurious (honestly, very few words are genuinely phonetic), “the vast majority” is a matter of considerable contention (it appears that “rea-le-tor” is far more widespread than you accept), and … I don’t see a third reason that I ignored, but maybe that’s a non-standard use of the number three, which I happily accept.
Regardless, what’s weird is your insistence on a single “right” answer. Why must there be only one? By UK standards, much of US speech is pretty weird (hell, the word “realtor” itself is a bit strange). By both of our standards, Kiwis speak a freaky dialect, eh. Don’t even get me started on Australian intonation? So why are you so resistant to the idea that there might be two whole ways of pronouncing one mere word within a nation as large and diverse as the States? Why must there be only one? Pronunciation isn’t Highlander (as anyone who’s heard Christopher Lambert’s diction will surely attest).
Just out of curiosity for those who argue there’s only one correct pronunciation, how do you pronounce abdomen? Amateur? Arctic? Applicable? Aunt? Basil? Caramel? Caribbean? Comfortable? Coupon? Err? Gigabyte? Guillotine? Harass? Herb? Islam? Kilometer? Loch? Louisville? Missouri? Nephew? Often? Pianist? Primer? Rodeo? Route? Schedule? Tomato?
I can guarantee you, at least one of these words makes you like like a total ass to someone. Do you care?
Gotcha. The vowel in real is a diphthong, so I can see how realtor can be parsed now as three syllables. I was honestly stumped. Like, how many syllables are in fire? One? Two? One and a half? I hate syllables.
Metathesis (ie, moving the schwa after the L) happens a lot in language, too. Like, horse used to be hrose, which is a way awesomer pronunciation in my humble opinion.
Well, that’s why I consider Pittsburgh to be in “the greater Cleveland area”.
Actually, your stubbornness regarding the marginalization of California’s second-largest city was the straw that broke the camel’s back, and your regression on same would have no effect on my opinion of you. That just happened to be the moment when I realized that you were beyond help, and absolutely dedicated to the whole of your ignorance.
Wow, you simply have no idea what you’re talking about. Why do you bother? You would get much better results at the Republican National Convention, where they swallow any turd with enough frosting on it.
Irrelevant. First off, the nonstandard pronunciation of “realtor” is not a mispronunciation, period. Second, writing is, by its nature, a standardized and learned system, while spoken language is more fluid and is acquired instinctively, thus providing for a much wider range of acceptable variation. Or would you contend that all Brits are gravely mispronouncing everything in the English language, whose True Platonic Form is however you happen to pronounce it?
Bolding mine. Are you seeing why we’re not getting anywhere? InvisibleWombat is not only unwilling to fight his ignorance, he’s actually proud of it.
The saddest part is that if he admitted that he was wrong and included a caveat that “I still wish everyone would pronounce it the way I do”, I’m pretty sure all of us who actually study language variation and change would back off, but he’s got his head too far up his ass for that. All he can see is bullshit for miles.
Um, what? I haven’t been within 1500 miles of northern Virginia since I was 10, and I probably couldn’t have even pronounced “epenthesis” then (correctly or not ). You’re going to have to PM me with the details if you expect me to believe you.
OTOH, I’m glad somebody noticed my attempt (feeble though it may have been) at giving a scientific answer to the actual question asked. It’s all language-by-fiat in here, and some people simply don’t care what the reality is.
Not a game. There are no winners here, just people who care about the facts of language. Which is why I have to admit this:
Unfortunately, no, so I’ll have to withdrawal the example for now. I was reminded of it by the recent Language Log discussion of Palin’s pronunciation, but I expected to find it fairly quickly (it was, as I recall, a linguistic discussion relating to Geoff Nunberg’s Going Nucular). Human memory being unreliable as it is, I’m prepared to accept the possibility that I’m full of shit and misremember, and that the variation in question is merely exceptionally common as opposed to “likely” being a majority choice.
Of course my argument stands: You claim to care how the experts pronounce words, which means you should care about how experts define words as well. Which makes your definition of “incorrect” just as contrary to professional usage as some people’s pronunciation of “realtor” is contrary to that real estate association’s preferences.
Always great to have linguists on the Dope, no question, which makes your contributions more and more valuable.
But really (and this might seem a little weird) I think that the state of language facts here is about as high as it’s ever been. It might just be my imagination, but I recall Excalibre fighting on mostly by himself in a lot of his threads before he was banned. He had the righteous fury (and basic knowledge) to handle the task. But today, I see many different people bringing facts to bear against the common superstitions. I try to do my small part when I feel I might be able to offer a different perspective, but there have been many times recently when I’ve been content to sit back and just watch everything unfold.
TWICE, in two different posts, I said that I would stop using that phrase the way I was using it, because it was clearly causing offense to southern Californians where none was meant.
But understand this: I was not marginalizing San Diego in any way whatsoever. To me, San Diego is in the greater Los Angeles area. Los Angeles is in the greater San Diego area. San Jose is in the greater San Francisco area. All it means is that they’re CLOSE TO EACH OTHER. I’ve said that over and over and over. And I now say, for a third time, that I’m not using that phrase as it relates to L.A. anymore. I have no stubbornness on that issue, although you are obviously pretty darned stubborn about keeping up an argument when someone else has apologized and backed out.
Stop being such an ass about it.
Sigh I’ve backed off. I’ve accepted the fact that far more people say re-la-tor than I ever imagined. I HAVE NEVER ONCE said that I care how you say the word, or any other non-realtors in the thread. I have accepted the fact that there are three, count-em-three, acceptable pronunciations of the word realtor, along with a multitude of slight variations and intermediate pronunciations.
But I, just little ol’ me, will continue to say that if a university gives me a degree, I will do my darndest to pronounce the name of the university the way its executives pronounce it. If I live in a city, I will attempt to always pronounce the name of the city the way the majority of its other residents pronounce it. And if, by some bizarre twist of fate, I become a Realtor, I will do my utmost best to pronounce the word Realtor the way the distributed audio materials from the organization that made me a Realtor say it.
And, I’m human. I will think just a little bit less of other degree-holders from that university, other residents of that city, and other realtors if they don’t do what I did.
And you, Hostile Dialect can take your arrogant, holier-than-thou, obnoxious–and yes, hostile–attitude, and shove it.
Okay, I’ve calmed down now, and I’ve been trying to figure out why Hostile Dialect was getting under my skin so much. I think I’ve got it. There are two issues he’s attacking me on, and here’s my perception of the attacks:
GREATER L.A. AREA: You’re an idiot, Invisible Wombat, because I live in the area under discussion and that makes me privy to the One True Meaning ™ of that phrase, and you are misusing it.
REALTOR: You’re an idiot, Invisible Wombat, because you show linguistic bias and preference toward the pronunciation of a word used by the organization that grants people the right to use that word as a title.
Am I the only one that sees a disconnect between those two positions?
Anyway, I am happy to back away from “Greater L.A. Area.” Hopefully, Hostile Dialect will remove his ass hat and put on his linguist hat and consider my explanation a couple of posts ago to be an interesting linguistic factoid about how people use phrases away from the Holy Land of San Diego. In the meantime, I will carefully refrain from using the phrase until I receive the anointed scrolls which explain to me precisely which communities are part of that area.
As for realtor, I will stop trying to explain my position, because it’s become rather pointless.
My university has three extant pronunciations. The more common one (the one I don’t use) is the one that ignores the spelling of the first word and but not the second word. The less common one (the one I use) pronounces both as they are spelled. The third and least common pronounces both words in a French way.
I went to Noter/Notre Dame/Dahm.
My husband is from Louisville, Kentucky. I pretty much defy anyone to find “the correct” pronunciation for Louisville. He says “Louieville.” Many others say “Lou-uh-vull” in a very exaggerated way.
I listed words upthread that have multiple common pronunciations. Though my husband is from Kentucky and I’m from SE Ohio, we differ on most of them. I’m used to having very different pronunciations from others around me, which means that if I start trying to judge people according to the way I pronounce words, I’m going to find myself without anyone to talk to or do business with.
Yes, because you’ve made up this bullshit about the professional association owning the pronunciation of the word, from whole cloth. You have made an extraordinary claim (that the professional association has an official, preferred pronunciation of the word, and that all other pronunciations are incorrect) which needs extraordinary proof, of which you have offered not the tiniest bit.
I am not the slightest bit interested in how one person from Montana, who has already shown himself to be an unreliable and delusional linguistic informant*, claims to think about the geography of southern California. The plural of “anecdote” is not “data”, and contrary to your surreal worldview, the singular of “anecdote” is not a synonym of “factoid”. Especially if the anecdote is unreliable and comes from a linguistically delusional source.
You consciously learned every single word in your vocabulary from the dictionary? Come on, get real.
I have carefully avoided calling Cleveland part of the “greater Pittsburgh area” and have not yet received any scrolls. I will go ahead and hold my breath while you wait for one single rational person to approve that usage. It was nice knowing you.
No kidding. Maybe you should consider actually reading our educated positions on language variation and change, and maybe, just maybe, fighting your ignorance.
Wow. Just wow. I explain that I’ve looked at your position, I’ve changed my position, I’ve explained where I’m coming from, and your response is to become an even bigger ass, completely misinterpreting everything I’ve said.
You seem to be having trouble aiming your arguments correctly, and you are having a lot of trouble assessing and interpreting any position that counters yours. Have you considered that perhaps–just perhaps–your massively overinflated ego might be getting in your way? Or is it just that you’re so fond of listening to yourself talk that you have trouble tuning in anyone else? Or you you just enjoy making stuff up?
I’ve read your “educated” positions, learned some things, changed my positions on some things, and attempted to carry on a conversation with you about them. You, on the other hand, are such a pompous, overbearing prick that you haven’t even read what I’ve typed. It’s not worth having a discussion with you when you aren’t listening.
Hostile Dialect, dude, I’m a big fan of linguistics and all but you’re doing us no favors. I was a pretty staunch prescriptivist right up until the first unit of my first linguistics class. Most prescriptivists probably assume their position is correct by default, as I did. I had never heard of descriptivism or seen anything like it in 18 or so years, and I read pretty widely and extensively. But descriptivism was so obviously superior that I became a descriptivist on the spot. All it takes is a basic understanding of the science of linguistics and the way language works to see that descriptivism is the reasoned approach.
Now, trying to go out and convince a prescriptivist of these things will be more challenging because unlike a student who chooses to take a linguistics class, they don’t necessarily have a desire to learn how language works. But the surest way to alienate them instantly and make your own goal a thousand times harder to achieve is to be, well, hostile about it. It’s usually not hard to get someone interested enough in language to be a prescriptivist to pay attention to what the overwhelming majority of linguists have to say. Then you’re a conduit from the experts in the field, rather appearing a shrill spokesman for a minority group that believes wacky stuff and considers themselves superior on the basis of it. In short, you may be arguing descriptivism but you’re doing it in the way that the most obnoxious of prescriptivists argue prescriptivism.
This thread could probably have been a lot shorter, more civil, and as or more productive. It’s not just you, since a fair number of the other descriptivists in this thread made some harsh comments as well, but I’ve seen a pattern of this behavior in your posting basically whenever linguistics is discussed. Yes, you are right. But you’re not helping us (or fighting much ignorance) by being an ass about it.
). You’re going to have to PM me with the details if you expect me to believe you.