Any Jewish people wanna help me with my homework?

In My Humble Opinion
21

[QUOTE=cmkeller]
I’ll go you one better - even my wife thought it would be a beautiful thing to have, until I reminded her in stark terms of what a Ketubah really says.
[/QUOTE]
What do ketubot really say? (That sounded a little snarky, sorry.) I’ve seen them in Jewish homes and been to Jewish weddings. At the time I didn’t have the curiosity or opportunity to push much beyond the simple explanation I was given – that it’s the marriage contract focusing on the obligations of the husband to the wife. I think I may have heard the notion that it describes sexual obligations as well – or was that just someone describing Jewish thought or law outside the ketubah itself?

Could someone point me to a reliable site or two that has English translations of ketubot and explains their context and significance, perhaps comparing various traditions?

TIA

22

[QUOTE=zagloba]
What do ketubot really say? (That sounded a little snarky, sorry.) I’ve seen them in Jewish homes and been to Jewish weddings. At the time I didn’t have the curiosity or opportunity to push much beyond the simple explanation I was given – that it’s the marriage contract focusing on the obligations of the husband to the wife. I think I may have heard the notion that it describes sexual obligations as well – or was that just someone describing Jewish thought or law outside the ketubah itself?

Could someone point me to a reliable site or two that has English translations of ketubot and explains their context and significance, perhaps comparing various traditions?

TIA
[/QUOTE]

You can find a translation of the text here . In short, it places a lien on the husband’s property should the marriage end (either by divorce or death of the husband). The husband (or his estate) must then pay the wife an agreed upon amount. Since the document is for her protection, it is understandable that not all wives want to display it.

The ketubah does not describe sexual obligations at all.

Interstingly, we have two – a real one which my wife has and a “fake” artisitc one that hangs on our wall. The fake is obviously not real, in that you can easily tell that both of the witnesses signatures are the same (my wife’s).

Zev Steinhardt

23

[QUOTE=zev_steinhardt]
Interstingly, we have two – a real one which my wife has and a “fake” artisitc one that hangs on our wall. The fake is obviously not real, in that you can easily tell that both of the witnesses signatures are the same (my wife’s).

Zev Steinhardt
[/QUOTE]

Now this is VERY interesting! I wonder, do you think that this is a common thing? Perhaps many Jewish wives keep the “official” one locked up, and the very pretty ones are used in the home as decorative artwork? That would certainly make sense to me.

Thank you so much to everyone! All of the insights everyone is providing are very helpful! :slight_smile:

24

[QUOTE=zev_steinhardt]
The ketubah does not describe sexual obligations at all.

[/QUOTE]

To this point, apparently it’s varied. Refering to the translation of an Egyptian Ketubah from 1821, it says, in part:

Without being too crude, it appears that depending on the region the Ketubah originates from, the man’s sexual obligations to the woman are detailed - that is, the Kutabah states that he’ll put out.

Obviously this is not universal - the text of the translation you linked to is quite different. FWIW, my source is An Illuminated Marriage Contract from the Cairo Geniza from April 16, 1821 Gratz College Annual of Jewish Studies, 7 - pp 91-98, 1978.

25

zagloba:

In the link provided by Zev, on the eighth line of the first English text, it uses the word “necessities.” I believe that is used as a euphemism to indicate that he accepts the obligation to satisfy her sexually.

The SPECIFICS of the husband’s sexual obligations to his wife are laid out in the Talmudic tractate CALLED “Ketubot”, which deal with the laws of the Ketubah itself and marital obligations in general. This could be a source of some of your confusion.

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I think I’m the only married Orthodox woman on the boards. Although I’ve always agreed in principle with people who say that it’s a supremely unromantic document and a weird thing to hang on your wall, there are such pretty ones out there (this is the ketuba of a good friend, made for her as a wedding present by an artist friend) that I’d always wanted a decorated one anyway. Then the rabbi performing our wedding insisted that he would bring the ketuba, and nothing else would do. He also disagreed with me on the spelling of my own middle name (in Hebrew, mind you), so I think my middle name is spelled wrong on my own ketuba. (I did win some other disagreements, and decided that I had to concede something to be graceful about it, and didn’t fight him hard on this.)

I actually wasn’t entirely sure where it was for the first few weeks after we got married, when we were quasi-homeless and bouncing around between various different places, and felt somewhat uneasy about that. I mean, it’s been pounded into my head that this is a Very Important Document, and must be guarded carefully, and yet I was fairly sure my new husband had chucked it in his luggage on our way out of the wedding hall and then left it in his old apartment, to which I didn’t have the keys! It’s currently rolled up in the tube the rabbi brought it in, along with the tenaim (an agreement legally formalizing the engagement, which used to be done many months before the wedding and required court proceedings to break, but is now done at the wedding itself, before the ceremony, mostly so that you can have other ‘honors’ to hand out to people who might otherwise feel miffed at being left out.) My mother keeps hers in a safety deposit box, along with stuff like the title to my parents’ house. I’d like to get a safety deposit box as well, but at the moment, it’s still in the top of my closet, next to the hat boxes.

It’s not a deeply private thing, and I can’t imagine that someone would be offended by being asked about it. I also can’t imagine what one would do with it ceremonially - it’s just there, not used for anything except (God forbid) a divorce. It’s an entirely traditional Aramaic one, on parchment-y looking paper. There are a few possible slight variations in the traditional wording, which I think is why our officiant insisted on bringing it - he wanted what he felt was the ‘best’ version (the Brisker one, for Chaim and Zev). I’m mildly disappointed over the fact that it’s pretty small and unattractive, but not enough that I’ve bothered to go shopping for a pretty, decorated ‘frame’ to mat it on and hang it up.

Good luck with your project!

27

[QUOTE=alice_in_wonderland]
I’m taking a class right now, rather ponderously named Daughters of Eve: The Role of Women in Western Religion. Despite the mouthful of a name, the class is really good.

As a requirement of the course each student has to present something about a western religion. I’ve decided to do a presentation about Ketubot both because many of them are fantastically beautiful, and I love the idea of having a visual representation of a couple’s commitment to each other on display in their home - it strikes me as very romantic.

Now, I’ve done a great deal of research, viewed a number of Ketubot, have a bunch picked out that I’m going to use in my presentation from a variety of different countries. I’ve done research about the religious significance, the artistic significance, and the daily (weekly) use of the Ketubah during Shabbat ceremonies.

I guess what I would really like is the perspective of someone (someones) who actually has one of these things. I have no idea how comfortable people would be talking about it - I mean, the impression I get is that the Ketubah is displayed in many Jewish homes so it can’t be THAT private, but it does deal with the intimate details of the marital relationship, and I don’t want to offend anyone.

So, with that disclaimer out of the way: To anyone who has a Ketubah - this obviously includes married Jewish people, or non-Jews married to Jews - what do you think about your Ketubah? Did you spend a lot of time choosing how it would look? Is it purely traditional, or did you opt to include some modern influences? Do you refer to it during Shabbat as my research suggests? In short, tell me all about your Ketubah! :slight_smile:

As an aside, there seem to be about 4 different spellings of Ketubah floating around in the literature - if I’ve selected the “wrong” one, I apologize.

Please - elucidate me!
[/QUOTE]

My wife and I have a ketubah used in our wedding ceremonty (five years ago) and now displayed on our bedroom wall. We chose the specific document becasue of its artistry and becasue of the wording (egalitarian Conservative). We also wrote and signed a more detailed “pre-nup” ketubah codicile which specifies mundane issues of living accommodations, personal preferences, etc.

We are in our late fifties, so child raising was not an issue.

In previous generations the ketubah was simply a certificate of marriage, like a civil license: the artisic form seems rather recent, and largely american.

Do you have specific questions I can assist with?

28

[QUOTE=GilaB]
I think I’m the only married Orthodox woman on the boards.
[/QUOTE]

Mazel Tov! I don’t think you were married when we last met by the Kosher DopeFest years ago. :slight_smile:

Zev Steinhardt

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[QUOTE=alice_in_wonderland]

Hopefully a Jewish lady will stop by and offer her opinion - not that I don’t appreciate the input from you fellas - I certainly do! However, one of the themes of my course is how religiosity is experienced differently by men and women. It would be interesting to me to see if Jewish women feel the same way as most of you guys.
[/QUOTE]
Jewish woman chiming in here. We have an artistic, publicly-displayed Ketubah, which I absolutely love and would never dream of hiding away. Even if U.S. laws recognized Jewish law with regard to divorce settlements, I still wouldn’t view it as merely a legal document to hold over my husband’s head. And even if all it is (or is supposed to be) is a document to prove my husband made certain financial promises to me, ours does include how he’ll treat me in the marriage (see below), not just after it, and I see no reason not to display it proudly, as a reminder to each of us the gravity of the commitment we entered into, as well as showing anyone else who sees it that we take those promises as seriously today as the day we made them and signed that document in front of all our witnesses.
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]

Well, I don’t think anyone is saying it’s bad to have an elaborate or pretty ketubah, but like cmkeller said, if her husband wants to divorce her and he destroys the ketubah, because he’s an evil bastard, she’s screwed, under Jewish law, because the ketubah is the only thing that lays out her rights under the law, and if she can’t present it, she’s not entitled to support or legal consideration.

so, while, yeah, it’s fine if it looks nice, and there have certainly been some really attractive ones over the years, it’s more important for what it says and what it does.
[/QUOTE]
While my husband might be able to destroy the original document, I do have photographic evidence of its existence and contents (though I need a better picture without the flash spot in the center). Not only do I have a photo of the document, but I have both still photo evidence and video evidence of my husband signing the document, as well. I don’t have the one of him online, but here’s the one of me signing it on our wedding day. (I’m wrapped in a sheet so my husband wouldn’t see me in my gown before I “walked down the aisle,” which happened after we’d been married officially by Jewish law in the smaller ceremony that took place when we each signed the Ketubah.)
[QUOTE=zagloba]

What do ketubot really say? (That sounded a little snarky, sorry.) I’ve seen them in Jewish homes and been to Jewish weddings. At the time I didn’t have the curiosity or opportunity to push much beyond the simple explanation I was given – that it’s the marriage contract focusing on the obligations of the husband to the wife. I think I may have heard the notion that it describes sexual obligations as well – or was that just someone describing Jewish thought or law outside the ketubah itself?

Could someone point me to a reliable site or two that has English translations of ketubot and explains their context and significance, perhaps comparing various traditions?
[/QUOTE]
I don’t read Hebrew, and I’m sure it’s not a precise translation, but the English text that appears on our Ketubah (which we purchased in the ultra Orthodox Fairfax district in Los Angeles (in fact, just a few doors up the street from Canter’s deli, shown in the picture on that link), and was printed in Israel, so I assume it meets the official requirements in Jewish law) reads:

Hope that was helpful.

30

[QUOTE=doctor2732]
In previous generations the ketubah was simply a certificate of marriage, like a civil license: the artisic form seems rather recent, and largely american.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, I have a couple of samples from Tunisia that are some of the most ornate I’ve seen - they’re written on parchment and have flower petals afixed to them in a pattern. Additionally, some of the ones from Israel are outstanding - multiple layers of super fine paper, hand detailed, etc. Really some beautiful objects.

I really don’t have specific questions (but thanks for the offer) - the purpose of the class is to develop an understanding of how religiosity is experienced by people, specifically women versus men. Other than describing your own experiences (which you did), theres nothing too specific I can ask. :slight_smile:

31

This website of the company we got our ketubah from has, in addtion to many beautiful ketubahs (and several hideous ones, if you ask me), a number of different options for the text. It also has an explanation of the different texts and why they might be chosen. They also offer an “anniversary” text to be used where a married couple does not have an illustrated ketubah to display.

We chose ours, the Venitian, because it was the one we both agreed we liked,

For a course entitled “Daughters of Eve: The Role of Women in Western Religion”, I bet a discussion of the traditional function of a ketubah as an early document preserving the wife’s right to compensation in the event of a divorce would make a more interesting presentation that the relatively modern custom of hanging the thing on the wall. (The explanation of the anniversary text linked to above notes that the custom of illustrated ketubahs has only been popular for 10 to 15 years).

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[QUOTE=Shayna]
Hope that was helpful.
[/QUOTE]

Very helpful! Thank you very much! As I suspected, it seems that women have a slightly different feeling about the Ketubah than men. Would you agree? Do you think your husband admires your public Ketubah as you do, or do you think he just looks at it and goes “Meh, the Ketubah, whatever.” ?

33

[QUOTE=Billdo]
For a course entitled “Daughters of Eve: The Role of Women in Western Religion”, I bet a discussion of the traditional function of a ketubah as an early document preserving the wife’s right to compensation in the event of a divorce would make a more interesting presentation that the relatively modern custom of hanging the thing on the wall.
[/QUOTE]

Oh I agree! I kind of planning on covering both - I’m looking at the religious significance of the Ketubah, the artistic significance, as well as the significance to Jewish women in my presentation.

34

Shayna:

Yes, but that would only prove that he made the promises in the first place - if the document is not in your hand, you can’t prove that he hasn’t already fulfilled them. That’s the way financial obligations work in Halacha - the document of debt is held by the lender, and is returned to the borrower upon satisfaction of the debt for the borrower. The borrower may not be able to deny he borrowed, but if the lender doesn’t have an IOU to present, the borrower can claim he already paid it back and be off the hook.

35

[QUOTE=alice_in_wonderland]

Very helpful! Thank you very much! As I suspected, it seems that women have a slightly different feeling about the Ketubah than men. Would you agree?
[/quote]
Well, that’s kindof a given in any circumstance. Any particular woman might have slightly different feelings about the Ketubah than any given man, or any given other woman, for that matter. Part of that goes to the “degree of religiosity” one feels towards their Judaism and part of that just goes to human nature, I presume.

For instance, I’m much more culturally Jewish than religiously Jewish, and my husband isn’t even Jewish at all, except in actually keeping a Jewish home with me. But my Jewish home and homes like that of GilaB, are worlds apart from one another, even though we’re both Jewish women.

While we have a mezuzah on our back door and one on our bedroom door, we haven’t found one we like or that will fit yet for the front door, nor do we touch them or kiss our fingers afterward when passing by them, which is undoubtedly a practice done by our Orthodox posters because they ascribe an entirely different significance to them than we do.

While we remove all chametz from the house and replace all our dishes, glassware & silverware during Passover, we don’t replace the pots and pans, or completely clear out all of our cupboards and scrub them down. And even though we build a sukkah and take meals in it for Sukot; GilaB (amongst others) would probably be mortified that we built our sukkah on Yom Kippur!

That we each have slightly different feelings about the meaning and display of our wedding Ketubah is really no surprise.

It never occurred to me to ask him how he felt about it, or if he even gives it a second thought when he happens to glance in its direction. I’ll ask him to come give you his opinion, but just remember that it comes from a non-Jewish man, so his opinion of it is probably completely irrelevant to your research.

36

[QUOTE=Shayna]
…but just remember that it comes from a non-Jewish man, so his opinion of it is probably completely irrelevant to your research.
[/QUOTE]

Not so! I’ve got boat-loads of scholarly journals for the real research-y bits - this thread is so I can get a feel for what actual PEOPLE do day-to-day. If your husband has a Ketubah, his opinions on it count! And I agree with you (although it honestly hadn’t occured to me) - I’m sure every person feels differently about their marital trappings. Not sure why that didn’t occur to me - I must be having a dopey moment. :slight_smile:

37

[QUOTE=cmkeller]

Yes, but that would only prove that he made the promises in the first place - if the document is not in your hand, you can’t prove that he hasn’t already fulfilled them. That’s the way financial obligations work in Halacha - the document of debt is held by the lender, and is returned to the borrower upon satisfaction of the debt for the borrower. The borrower may not be able to deny he borrowed, but if the lender doesn’t have an IOU to present, the borrower can claim he already paid it back and be off the hook.
[/QUOTE]
Which kindof illustrates my above point to alice_in_wonderland. For you this is an important consideration, and critical to your obligations in your marriage. Because I am not a “religious” Jew, if G-d forbid I ever did find myself going through a divorce, I’m never going to grab my Ketubah off the wall, take it to a Rabbi and demand payment from my husband based on that document. I’m sure the civil courts would address any legal issues I may have in that regard, which would be perfectly acceptable to me.

38

[QUOTE=zev_steinhardt]
Mazel Tov! I don’t think you were married when we last met by the Kosher DopeFest years ago. :slight_smile:

Zev Steinhardt
[/QUOTE]

Thanks! We got married this past August.
I only realized that ‘met by’ wasn’t actually English until I was in college. (Sometimes, I really miss the happy Jewish smiley face.) I’ve spent my whole life ‘eating by’ or ‘staying by’ so-and-so, which I guess goes to show you the power of dialect.

The points Shayna raises are definitely true. While I don’t know exactly what she’s imagining of me (I’ve found that most people picturing ‘Orthodox woman’ picture an older Hasidic woman, dressed in a particular, hyper-modest style, with a dozen children, no education, and a Yiddish accent, none of which are true of me), she and I probably approach religion quite differently, and therefore would look at a ketuba very differently. While I would go through a civil court as well as a religious one in the case that I were (God forbid) getting divorced, I considered the religious wedding ceremony the ‘real’ one, and wouldn’t have thought of myself as married without a ketuba. (We didn’t actually get our civil marriage license signed and mailed out until we’d been married for about a month - many Orthodox Jews are fairly casual about getting civilly married, with most bothering to do so eventually, but they’ll manipulate the timing for convenience, such as tax purposes, getting out of university housing requirements, or when they get a chance to get to city hall. I’ve known people who got civilly married earlier/later for each.) So for me, the ketuba is primarily the thing by which I got married, and has more religious than sentimental significance. (I suppose I get sentimental about my wedding ring, which I wear even while sleeping, although technically it’s also something that allowed me to get married religiously.) I would have liked to have a pretty one not so much because it would have been a romantic symbol, but more because there are so many pretty ones available, and I’ve seen many that I find attractive and would like to have hanging in my house. I suppose I’m not as much of a romantic as many women. But Shana’s point remains - it’s difficult to quantify any group opinion, but ‘Jewish women’ is such a broad group that it makes the task almost impossible. I don’t think one could even do something like that well for ‘Orthodox women’ - my stereotypical Hasidic lady and me (working on my second master’s degree, obsessive reader of the newspaper, football fan, feminist, socializer with non-Jews, watcher of movies, and definitely not Hasidic) probably have very different views of ketubot as well.

By the way, kissing a mezuza is a custom, not a law, and some people do, some don’t, and many people vary. I won’t if I’m moving from room to room to room in my house, or if I’m entering the living room where it’s inconveniently located above a railing, for example, and many people (like my husband) don’t bother with it at all. The laws about mezuza have to do with how it’s written, and where and how it should be hung, but as long as there’s kosher mezuzas hanging on the relevant doorways, you’re good, and can ignore it entirely if you like.

39
  • here’s a take from a non-Jewish man. Shayna - who, I hasten to add, checked with me before suggesting I should offer my view - was of course the one who introduced me to the entire concept and I thought it a pretty cool idea.

Admittedly, as I am almost entirely non-religious, our katubah has no particular spiritual significance to me.

So apart from being a very beautiful item - which it is, with its intricate calligraphy and wide decorated border- to me it is mostly a reminder of our wedding day, the way a framed wedding photo is to some. Except it seems more personal and a bit more serious - more focus on the promises, less on the party. Like wearing a wedding band, hanging the katubah where guests can see it is a public display of the commitment we made.

I also really like the cultural tie-in to a millenium-old tradition - but I suspect that might be more on an intellectual than on an emotional level. Still, coming to a country this young, I like the feeling of being rooted to something a little more permanent.

Oh, and picking it out was good fun - there are some weird designs out there.

40

Thanks for all the answers.