Any Jewish people wanna help me with my homework?

[Anne_Neville]

Our ketubah is one of these . It’s on our bedroom wall. My in-laws have their ketubah on display in their dining room. We’re Conservative, and so are my in-laws.

[cmkeller]

Shayna:

Because I am not a “religious” Jew, if G-d forbid I ever did find myself going through a divorce, I’m never going to grab my Ketubah off the wall, take it to a Rabbi and demand payment from my husband based on that document. I’m sure the civil courts would address any legal issues I may have in that regard, which would be perfectly acceptable to me.

I realize that being non-religious, the authority of a Rabbinic court may be meaningless to you, but…the two are not mutually exclusive. The financial obligations outlined in a Ketubah would not disappear upon the imposition of other obligations imposed by a civil divorce court. It’s still money the wife (ex-wife) could have coming to her as long as she has her hands on the document.

[cmkeller]

Oh, BTW, Mazel Tov, GilaB!

[Nava]

So, if I understand the concept correctly, a Ketubah would be what’s now in civil domains a premarital contract?

ETA: Congratulations, GilaB!

[Noone_Special]

@Nava

So, if I understand the concept correctly, a Ketubah would be what’s now in civil domains a premarital contract?

Yes, I’d say that’s a pretty good definition. It was quite an advanced concept for its time – the idea that the husband has various obligations he can’t just walk away of, and that he cannot just get rid of his wife pretty much at will.
Nowadays of course the original text looks outdated and sexist… like a lot of ancient concepts. And some Jewish denominations will accept / have in fact accepted other wordings, more egalitarian than the original (although I don’t think this is very commonplace in Orthodox circles.)

[Captain_Amazing]

I’d say the tena’im would be like a civil pre-marital contract, because it’s the document that sets up the conditions and obligations that each person has in regards to the marriage. Of course, they’re not used much anymore the way they used to be.

[Shayna]

@cmkeller

Shayna:

I realize that being non-religious, the authority of a Rabbinic court may be meaningless to you, but…the two are not mutually exclusive. The financial obligations outlined in a Ketubah would not disappear upon the imposition of other obligations imposed by a civil divorce court. It’s still money the wife (ex-wife) could have coming to her as long as she has her hands on the document.

Yes, I get that. But what I’m trying to get across is that I would not use it for that purpose or in that way. This thread wasn’t about what the Ketubah is technically for, or how it works in the Jewish religion – that would’ve been a GQ. This thread inquired as to how we felt about the significance of that document. I feel differently than you or your wife feel about it.

@GilaB

The points Shayna raises are definitely true. While I don’t know exactly what she’s imagining of me (I’ve found that most people picturing ‘Orthodox woman’ picture an older Hasidic woman, dressed in a particular, hyper-modest style, with a dozen children, no education, and a Yiddish accent, none of which are true of me), she and I probably approach religion quite differently, and therefore would look at a ketuba very differently.

I’m not imagining anything at all regarding your appearance, education, accent or any other superficial thing. I was simply pointing out to alice, who asked if I generally thought Jewish women felt differently about the Ketubah than Jewish men, that the gender distinction would be entirely irrelevant, given that, as an example, your definition of a “Jewish home” and mine would be extremely different by virtue of our vastly differing degrees of religiosity, and therefore, as you agree, we would look at a Ketubah very differently in spite of the fact that we’re both Jewish women.

@GilaB

By the way, kissing a mezuza is a custom, not a law. . . The laws about mezuza have to do with how it’s written, and where and how it should be hung, but as long as there’s kosher mezuzas hanging on the relevant doorways, you’re good, and can ignore it entirely if you like.

Which was kindof what I was trying to illustrate – I don’t even have a mezuzah on all the relevant doorways, particularly the front door to my home. That would be a big no-no to an Orthodox Jew, whether they observed any of the other rituals regarding it or not.

And Mazel Tov from me, as well, for finding your bashert! Marriage is a wonderful blessing. May you have a lifetime of love and joy together.

[GilaB]

Thanks for the good wishes!

I actually had the sense that you personally weren’t imagining anything cultural of me, but I threw that in there more for other readers, who might possibly think such a thing. I definitely understand your point that I do many things because I feel they’re required by law, while you probably approach them more as points of tradition, which you keep to the degree that they are meaningful to you. And any discussion of feelings about anything within Judaism certainly needs to take that into account, so thank you for bringing it up!

[cmkeller]

Shayna:

Yes, I get that. But what I’m trying to get across is that I would not use it for that purpose or in that way. This thread wasn’t about what the Ketubah is technically for, or how it works in the Jewish religion – that would’ve been a GQ. This thread inquired as to how we felt about the significance of that document. I feel differently than you or your wife feel about it.

My mistake, then. I thought you meant that you didn’t think it would still be a valid document of debt because in the event of divorce (may it never happen) civil courts take charge of division of assets and remaining monetary obligations.

[pretend_my_name_is_witty]

Seeing as you’ve had lots of really useful replies, I feel I can come in with my unhelpful one…

…am I the only person who has the song from Family Guy’s “When You Wish Upon a Weinstein” episode going through my head after reading the thread title?

[alice_in_wonderland]

I just wanted to thank everyone again for their contributions - they were super helpful and I really appreciate everyone’s real life experiences.

I’m off to do my presentation now - hopefully my classmates will find this as interesting as I do.

[GilaB]

How did it go?

[alice_in_wonderland]

@GilaB

How did it go?

Here’s my evaulation from the prof:

Technical Matters.

Your presentation style is very good. Your hand gestures matched your speech, and were helpful for emphasized points in your presentation. You did use changes in pacing, and pauses to both emphasize ideas and to create divisions in your speech. My own suggestions would be to slow down a little and speak a little louder, Especially, if you are using media, you will need to compete with a fan, and, if you slow down a little, you provide an opportunity for students to take notes.

Finally, I did enjoy your analogies and contemporary examples. They did assist in illustrating ideas in your presentation, and they provide a link for the audience. They also provide some humor and a level of comfortableness, which are necessary for building a connection to the audience.

Very good use and appropriate use of visual arts – i.e. handout for the large sections of text, powerpoint for the visuals, powerpoint text as a guide.

Content.

Excellent introduction of background material. It was clear and concise with a specific focus on the information that pertained to your thesis. This demonstrates a comprehension of the material and an application of this knowledge to your thesis.

Excellent grasp of the Jewish context. Your discussion on the importance of work and text within Judaism was very appropriate. It showed an understanding of the religion from an ‘insiders’ perspective, and again it provided some foundation for your thesis.

Body of Discussion Excellent blending of text and visuals in the development of your thesis. You used the visuals as evidence for your thesis rather than just examples or illustrations. Your ability to discuss the ketubah in terms of a historical evolution, reflection of private religiosity, and ritual demonstrated an awareness of the intersection of religious doctrine, practice and material culture, and the various influences that effect all three. Additional, your thesis showed an awareness of diversity within Judaism, and the range of religious expression that exists in any religion in reference to the doctrine and the private practice. Excellent adoption of methodologically awareness when you decided to listen to the voices of the women, and understand their impressions of the ketubah. This brings you work in the third stage of feminist scholarship.

This was a great presentation. 19/20

So pretty well I guess. Thanks again for everyone’s help!

[Noone_Special]

@alice_in_wonderland

Here’s my evaulation from the prof:

So pretty well I guess. Thanks again for everyone’s help!

:Both thumbs up: Good job!

[GilaB]

Glad it went well!

[alice_in_wonderland]

Thanks again.

At one point during the presentation I actually said “I don’t actually know very many Jewish people in real life; however, I know LOTS of Jewish people on the internet…” which went over really well.

[cmkeller]

Good going! Glad we could help!

[Shayna]

Wow – Go You! Mazel Tov!