Are adult women having sex with teenagers equivalent to adult men having sex with teenagers?

Great Debates
101

Bingo! Dead on.

I look at it this way- most of the arguing that it’s different somehow for a teenage girl/adult man versus a teenage boy/adult woman seem to center around the idea that teenage girls don’t want sex/don’t derive status from it, and teenage boys do.

I think that’s mostly absurd. While the male libido is in high gear at that age, it doesn’t at all mean that the female libido is absent, or that girls are uninterested.

What seems to be the biggest difference is whether or not it’s coercive on the part of the adult. I’m reminded of a college buddy who’d had this happen to him when he was in high school. A young-ish woman (IIRC she was in her mid-late 20s at the time) had essentially coerced him into sex through her role as a martial arts teacher. And let me tell you, it FUCKED him up as far as his relationships with women were concerned. And I’m absolutely sure the same thing happens when it’s an adult male coercing a teenage girl.

But… if 16 year old Lolita seduces her 40 year old unmarried male neighbor because she thinks he’s hot, interesting, and not part of her school social circle, where’s the harm? In large part, it’s two consenting people, and no different than if it was 40 year old unmarried neighbor and her 16 year old teenage boy neighbor.

It’s the coercion/power differential that’s the thing; it’s amplified by the adult/teenager thing, but fundamentally it’s no different than the “traditional” superior/subordinate type sex assault.

102

Well, yeah they have. Let’s start with the OP:

And then others go on. I’ve only looked at the first 20 posts so far:

103

That’s basically what I’ve been trying to say.
We must assume an element if coercion bc they aren’t consenting age, sentencing centers around the degree of that coercion.

Other arguments of psychological or other damage would be great for a civil case but don’t directly effect the legality.

I believe this is why in the OPs post the case mentioned, the DA paints the woman as a mother figure.

This is also the root of why we look at it different when the adult is 19 and the minor is 16 vs when the adult is 40 and the minor is 15.

Or why it’s different in a teacher student dynamic. Etc.

Judges also seem to take into account mental age, whether the minor was actually actively trying to be the seducer, and to some extent whether the person was sexually active already.

104

Bovine Excrement

I’m sure you have a cite for the power block of women that keeps them safe from criminal sentencing, the draft, and…how charities treat them???

Those ‘advantages’ are imposed on them. They would trade them in a second to earn the same at work. Bet.

105

[Emphasis is mine.]

As with my previous (quite cynical) post, I’m looking at this via a longer-term anthropological view.

Note that even the ‘age of consent’ is different now in different US States and it has changed considerably over time. In the ending chapters of Little House… Laura Ingalls [Wylder] boasts that she’s almost sixteen; about the same age as her mother (Caroline?) was when she got married to Little Joe*

We also know that some cultures considered 10 or 12 (or even 6) to be a suitable marrying age. We’ve even had subcultures in the USA reviving such ‘daughter-trading’ practices in the 20th and 21st centuries. Within those subcultures, such April/December pairings were considered the norm, regardless of the value-judgements of outsiders.

I’m still suggesting# the socio/cultural/legal outrage is mostly a hold-over from when men were 100% in charge and got pissy about having their daughters spoiled – moreover without the father’s approval.:eek:

—G!

  • Yes, I know I’m mixing TV programs

Nope, no cites; just throwing it out there for people to contemplate and kick around in this discussion.

106

That’s hilarious.
Since the pay gap is made up almost entirely of a few select industries.

107

Not to mention the are occupations what women out earn men.

Meaning you can only conclude that the factors are different for any given position and the only women who would stand to gain anything exist within a select number of industries, predominantly those with potential for extremely high paid jobs.

108

I’m sure that’s part of it, however to argue that punishments should be gender neutral you would basically have to conclude that men don’t bully or oppress or coerce women and that isn’t amplified even more for a girl.

After all we certainly adjust punishments based on exact circumstances …if gender doesn’t factor in then we are saying there is no male/female dynamic that changes the level of coercion.

109

Ask her at 30 what she thought about what she did when she was 16. A 16-year-old may willingly do something that has consequences that they are not emotionally or psychologically equipped to deal with compared to an adult. Even though in your scenario, the 40-year-old did not “coerce” the girl, there is a huge imbalance of maturity and it does not absolve the man of all responsibility. This doesn’t even take into account the potential for pregnancy.

110

You didn’t even begin to address my other points, and your first statement has already been proven wrong. As for your weak argument here, that his accusation alone is enough to cost the teacher her job, you’re wrong there, too. An accusation alone is insufficient. To fire a teacher for an accusation that can’t be proven is to invite a wrongful discharge suit. Surely as an attorney, you know that, though I can see why you’d choose to ignore it for this thread. Like females, males in that same situation are often disbelieved and suffer social scorn for coming forward. And the attitude a boy was “lucky” to have had sex with a teacher is yet another reason he’s likely to avoid reporting.

111

? Seriously? And you envision these teens who–gasp!–wear makeup and/or dress in violation of most school dress codes (and never get it trouble for it) are “whores” who are really out to sexually excite male teachers so they can then refuse them (cock-tease definition)? Pretty twisted, misogynist ideas there.

112

Sarcasm.

113

Actually in his scenario the law assumes coercion on the 40yr olds part anyhow, for exactly the reasons you stated.

They may or may not lighten the sentence because of her behavior…

114

Actually noone has argued that it’s a good thing. While I would have been happy, doesn’t make it a good thing.

In my situation that would have probably made it a less bad thing …

115

a) You aren’t making a case. You’re waving your hand in a certain direction and asking us all to nod in agreement about stuff we all know and then using that “argument” to support a tendency to continue “knowing” it, but without developing the substance of it at all.

b) Be that as it may, let’s posit, for the sake of argument, that as a generalization, the sexuality of female people and that of male people is different in precisely such a way that adult women having sex with teenaged boys is less damaging than adult men having sex with teenaged girls.

Generalizations are what they are; they describe a pattern to which exceptions exist.

Laws are what they are, too, and the ancillary legal stuff such as sentencing behaviors and so forth, and unlike generalizations, they apply to everyone. If laws (and sentencing behaviors etc) were to be allowed to vary in accordance with the generalization, the people who are exceptions are denied the full protections of the law.

116

I’m not saying it’s the right thing to do, but that it’s not different by gender- a 40 year old man shagging a 16 year old isn’t inherently worse than a 40 year old woman shagging a 16 year old boy. Neither 16 year old is prepared for it compared to an adult. For that matter, if the 16 year olds are doing each other, they’re no more prepared for it.

My point was that there are scenarios where it’s fundamentally non-coercive- for both genders. It doesn’t make it right, it doesn’t make it good, but it does mean that adult male/young female isn’t inherently predatory in a way that some seem to think it has to be. And for that matter, there can be situations where adult female/young male can be every bit as predatory as the reverse.

I think we all agree that adults* getting it on with teenagers is inherently an undesirable thing, and that it can be predatory on the adult side regardless of gender. But it’s not inherently predatory, and it’s not dependent on gender as to whether it’s predatory or not.

*except in the edge cases where it’s say… a 21 year old man and a 17 year old girl, both of whom are in college together. (and yes, there are 17 year olds in college on occasion)

117

16yr old girl sleeps with a 22yr old mentally handicapped man

16yr old boy sleeps with a 22yr old mentally handicapped woman

Two 16 year olds sleep together

All of these people have committed the same crime (exception for the last couple in some states), do punish them all equally?
Do genders factor in?

They have all committed the same crime as a 40 yr old with any 16yr old…do we punish them the same?

22yr old woman goes to a boy band concert and is invited backstage and sleeps with a member.

35 yr old male teacher sleeps with a 16yr old female student

20yr old virgin girl with her 17yr old bf who’s had multiple partners.

All those over 18 here committed the same crime, do we punish them all equally? Do their genders factor in?
I know bump seems to agree we have to look at the whole picture at least.

The problem of just a scenario supporting non coercive is that then the age doesn’t, so no matter how much the minor may be the one displaying coercive behavior the coercion still falls to the adult side…it can only legally fall shorter or farther over the line.

118

I probably misunderstood your point. However, I took your point of non-coercion to mean it’s all OK.

I think there is a consistent issue in this thread with the use of the word “coerce.” One dictionary definition is “persuade (an unwilling person) to do something by using force or threats.” I think for some statutes the legal definition may vary (IANAL), where it may mean “persuade a willing person to do something that they are not morally or legally able to consent to.” For example, if a person who is 16 says to a person who is 40, “Sure, I’ll have sex with you” they have consented by the dictionary definition, but not by the legal definition, since they are legally defined to be unable to consent. So there was no coercion in terms of force, but coercion may be presumed.

119

Howdy do, all,

Fun discussion! Here’s my wordy reply, which you may read if you really don’t have anything better to do:

You can divide convicted criminals several ways. One way that doesn’t get much press is this one:
Convicted criminals are either:
a.) people we’re afraid of,
b.) people we’re mad at, or
c.) people who are sick, and caused harm because of their sickness; so, at best, we feel a mixture of pity and fear.

If you can suggest any other subdivisions, please add them.

A woman in a position of authority fails to control herself with an immature boy (i.e. all 15-year-olds). Which type is she? Does it matter in the sentencing hearing?

I suggest that it’s a fantastic waste of money to imprison all the people we’re mad at. Add the people who are sick in the head, and we find ourselves one of the world’s most prison-bedecked societies.

I’d classify a 30-year-old teacher that boinked a teenaged student as:
a.) a person I’m mad at, because she abused the teacher-student relationship for personal enjoyment, and
b.) a person we need to be cautious of. If she failed to control herself once, she well might again; therefore
c.) there may be a medical reason at the bottom of this. Like, a hole in her sense of self that needs repair. Repair how, I leave to future brain doctors.

Were the genders reversed, that would be a real different situation, because (quick list) traditional-society power dynamic, possibility of pregnancy and its permanent alterations to body and life, likelihood that perpetrator wasn’t looking for true love but just another notch in his stick, etc.

Just to heave another depth charge off the fantail before I go:

Would boys who have reached sexual maturity benefit from being given a first sexual experience with an older woman (or, man)? Assume this would happen in a virus-free, coercion-free environment, at a time approved by medical personnel. I’m not recommending it yet myself, but it might give the boys some much-needed learnin’.

Needless to say, this would be happening in some society in outer space somewhere. A modern America, shaped by Calvinists, Southern denominations, or/and other old-time Levantine religions, will never go for it inside of the next 50 years. After that, though, who knows?

Cheers, all–

120

nm…