Are black women generally less attractive then white women?

[even_sven]

I also can’t believe we are seriously having this conversation.

Perceived beauty is indeed tied to status. This is why farming societies value white skin and office worker societies value tans. It’s why food-scarce societies value thicker women while sedentary societies value women who look like they spend all day in the gym. It’s why many feminine beauty rituals from painted nails to high heels essentially signal “I don’t have to do hard labor.” Right now in America, black women in general are considered pretty low-status.

But things are different around the globe. I knew a middle-aged black American guy who spent many pleasurable years sleeping with an assortment of extremely attractive mid-20s white women in Beijing. Since foreign men often come to Asia to get with younger Asian women and white women are not often considered attractive by local beauty standards beyond novelty value, even really attractive and still quite young white women in Asia find themselves without partners. He said he found all these hot girls just completely ignored. He was the only one hitting on them and they were happy to return the attention.

Meanwhile, some foreigners go ga-ga over women who would be considered far too chubby and dark skinned to be beautiful by local standards, while others go nuts for girls that would be considered far to thin to be sexy by western standards. While plenty of women would be considered objectively “beautiful” in both cultures, I think few women would be considered “screaming hot” in both places.

Of course in other places it is a completely different story. in America I’m about average for a fit woman my age. In Cameroon, I was the hottest thing anyone had ever seen, and I do think people found me genuinely beautiful- something that was hard for me to understand since to me they don’t know what western women are “supposed” to look like. in China, I was basically un-dateable even though some people found my features to be objectively beautiful in an exotic way, much like people here say they can appreciate the features of black women without being attracted to them. So, how attractive am I?

Anyway, this is a little disjointed but boils down to “beauty and status are loosely tied,” “different people like different things,” and “there are general cultural trends that would lead one woman to be considered extremely beautiful in one culture and un-dateable in another.” This all adds up to "Of course black women are not objectively less attractive than white women, but there are a number of forces that lead to many individuals in our particular society being more attracted to white women.

[Mijin]

@alice_in_wonderland

Why would we do that? Shodan’s goofy assertion is that because a bunch of black guys he used to know wanted to have sex with an ugly white woman, that must mean that white woman are hotter than black women.

To me, that conclusion is totally absurd - they wanted to have sex with the ugly white woman because she was willing, and she was a novelty. Hotness or not-hotness had nothing to do with it (at least IMHO).

Not quite:

Shodan brought up marriage stats, with a cite.

Then descamisado brought up the “group of black friends”, and the implication that black guys get with white women for novelty / bragging rights reasons. And it was this reasoning that I was countering.

[Mijin]

@even_sven

Perceived beauty is indeed tied to status.

Sure. But it’s also true to say that for men at least, status comes way down the list.
Certainly it’s not an important enough a factor to say black women have lower status therefore that’s why there are few white man black woman
relationships.

"Of course black women are not objectively less attractive than white women, but there are a number of forces that lead to many individuals in our particular society being more attracted to white women.

Nothing is objectively more attractive than anything else.

But humans have certain predispositions. And some of these have been shown to be common to all cultures: clear skin, facial symmetry, hourglass ratio (Note: ratio: a very thin woman can be “hourglass” under this definition).

Some of your examples are interesting, but there are plenty of anecdotes that go the other way. For example, it appears that asian women tend to prefer tall men, like most places. And that this gives white or mixed guys an “unfair” advantage.

[even_sven]

[quote=“Mijin, post:243, topic:483163”]

@even_sven

Sure. But it’s also true to say that for men at least, status comes way down the list.
Certainly it’s not an important enough a factor to say black women have lower status therefore that’s why there are few white man black woman
relationships.

I think you underestimate how much of what you perceive as “beauty” is actually status. A phrase I hear a lot is “I want a woman who takes care of herself.” They don’t mean someone who chooses flattering clothes from WalMart and keeps neat and clean- they mean someone who looks like they spend money on their hair, nails and clothes. And doing that means you aren’t working in a factory, doings lots of dishes or engaging in messy low-status work.

While it’s natural to look for white teeth as a sign of youth and health, America’s unique obsession with perfectly straight and black-light white teeth is mostly about signaling “I come from a family that can afford braces.” Other cultures that are quite similar to ours do not care about slightly discolored teeth as long as they are in the realm of “normal.”

Meanwhile, we couldn’t give two licks about the exact shade of a woman’s skin, but in much of the world that is one of the primary things that makes someone beautiful and women spend thousands of dollars on getting lighter in degrees that we would never think to notice or care about. It’s all about showing that you are not a farmer who has to hang out in the sun. You can afford a wife who can stay inside.

Anyway, if you took a woman with the same features and figure- one black and one white- I promise you the white woman would get more men attracted to her. Hell, I bet you could take the same girl and tell some people she’s Spanish and some she’s Mexican, and I bet she’d get a lot more attention as a Spaniard. You may consider screwing a girl that sounds like a hillbilly, dropped out of high school, has “ghetto nails,” an obvious home-dye job, and drives a car held together by duct tape and bungee cords. But you probably wouldn’t make her your girlfriend or marry her, even if she was hot That’s status.

[Swords_to_Plowshares]

White guy here. White women are more attractive to me, though this is totally my opinion and I have no qualms with those who express different opinions. It isn’t because of some inherent superiority or cultural difference. Beauty is subjective. Also, it wouldn’t surprise me if we’re hard-wired to be more attracted to similar-looking people, because different = potentially dangerous (evolutionarily speaking).

[AClockworkMelon]

@Swords_to_Plowshares

because different = potentially dangerous (evolutionarily speaking).

Evolutionarily speaking, the opposite is true.

[Swords_to_Plowshares]

@AClockworkMelon

@Swords_to_Plowshares

because different = potentially dangerous (evolutionarily speaking).

Evolutionarily speaking, the opposite is true.

Yes and no. For plants, cross-pollination is optimal. However, throughout human history interracial marriage and procreation has been rare, partly because different races became different competing factions.

[Mijin]

@even_sven

I think you underestimate how much of what you perceive as “beauty” is actually status.

And you’re overstating it.

The fact of the matter is, men are highly geared around aesthetics. Some of those aesthetics can be improved with modern pharmaceuticals, orthodontal work etc, but to imply that those things are attractive only because of the implication of social status is absurd.
There’s no evidence that social status matters to men, and plenty of evidence that they’ll date a pretty girl no matter where she comes from.

And doing that means you aren’t working in a factory, doings lots of dishes or engaging in messy low-status work.

You should also include low status work like au pair, shop assistant or receptionist.
Oh, but wait, those are jobs that typically attract young women, and would too obviously go against your point.

You may consider screwing a girl that sounds like a hillbilly, dropped out of high school, has “ghetto nails,” an obvious home-dye job, and drives a car held together by duct tape and bungee cords. But you probably wouldn’t make her your girlfriend or marry her, even if she was hot That’s status.

Similarly I wouldn’t want to date a pretty woman that was covered in vomit.
After a shower and clean set of clothes I may well.

[Ryan_Liam]

I don’t understand how some guys don’t like black women. In general, black women have some of the best figures going, plus great lips and general all round sexiness. I wish more black women would be open to dating white guys, and I think that is the main obstacle IMO. So obviously you can tell I love black women

[MeanOldLady]

@Mijin

@even_sven

I think you underestimate how much of what you perceive as “beauty” is actually status.

And you’re overstating it.

Except I don’t think she is. I would hesitate to narrow it down so specifically to status, but I do think it’s that there is a basic association between white and good, and black and bad. Someone earlier said he couldn’t get it up for Halle Berry, even though he recognizes that she is beautiful. Wtf? Also, in the middle of this “So would you bang her?” fest, someone linked to a black girl (who I thought got prettier with less make up, but that’s beside the point), and someone else responded that she was pretty, but that even though she had dark skin, she essentially looked like a white girl. No she didn’t. Not at all. I think much like what you with the face said, I think many see a black girl they find pretty, and perhaps without even noticing it, are reminded of a white girl. When people say things like Halle Berry or whoever is pretty, but they can’t bring themselves to bone her, or that so and so is pretty, but reminds him of a white girl (even though there is nothing vaguely white-looking about her), it suggests strongly that this is about more than physical appearance alone.

On a related note, in my own personal life, I’ve been told that I am “basically white.” What? How? I am not biracial; I don’t even look white. I have dark brown skin. Consult your nearest Snickers candy bar, and that is my skin tone in the summer. Consult your nearest almond, and that is my skin tone in the winter. I have dark eyes, naturally kinky hair (that I straighten, but most black women I know do as well), wide hips, and hell, my lips are even full for a black girl. I look black. Although I would like to take a moment to mini-hijack my own post to say the idea of what black looks like is wildly limited. Randomly select a black person from Somalia, Sudan and Nigeria and tell me how much they look alike. (Hint: Not at all). But in the sense you’re likely all thinking of, I “look black.”

Now then, some will say my lack of blackness has probably more to do with the “black experience” which is supposed to entail growing up in rough neighborhoods, being poor, and generally struggling to “make it.” Got that covered too. I spent the first 18 years of my life off and on (mostly on) in South Central Los Angeles. My mother is an immigrant, and not one who came here when she was very young and was raised thoroughly Americanized; she came here when she was 24, with no education or work, and did not become a citizen until she was in high school. My father was born and raised well before American schools were desegregated and never finished high school.

So I look black and have whatever the black experience is supposed to be. How, then, am I “basically white?” How much blacker am I supposed to be? Thing is if this were just one person who said this to me, I’d dismiss him as a kook, but I have heard this over and over again. I’m sure that every black person who doesn’t fit some narrow black stereotype has heard this repeatedly throughout their lives. Not just from black people who think once you go to college and “talk good” that you’re not black enough. From numerous white people as well. I’ve been on dates with people who have told me I was a white girl. It’s as if they needed to make it okay with themselves to date a black girl. This is even more offensive to me than saying I’m “one of the good ones.” My bar friend asked me what part of LA I grew up in, and when I said South Central, he said, “You did not. But you’re so white!” How? In what way am I white? “You know…” No, I do not know. Actually, I did. It meant “I attribute positive qualities to you.”

So what is the point of this long, rambling treatise on nothing? You can boil down my take on things to these:

1. I don’t think any race looks better than the other. They look different, and the only way any looks better than the other is if you have some rubric that you’re measuing them against, which some people (unfortunately) do.

2. I think people’s attraction to races has a lot more to do with their overall ideas of that race than they think. That is, it is not a matter of looks alone.

I didn’t mean for this to get so long, but here we are.

[you_with_the_face]

@MeanOldLady

I’ve been on dates with people who have told me I was a white girl. It’s as if they needed to make it okay with themselves to date a black girl. This is even more offensive to me than saying I’m “one of the good ones.” My bar friend asked me what part of LA I grew up in, and when I said South Central, he said, “You did not. But you’re so white!” How? In what way am I white? “You know…” No, I do not know. Actually, I did. It meant “I attribute positive qualities to you.”

Aw shit, now I’m having painful flashbacks. I’ll never forget how my first lover (a dude of Italian and Lebanese descent) looked affectionately upon my face one evening while I was lying beside him in the nude and he lovingly remarked, stroking my cheek, “Wow, you almost look white, ywtf”.

Not “Wow, you are so beautiful” which is what my ESP tells me he was thinking. But instead out of his mouth came that shit. Made me throw up in my mouth, and not just a little bit.

I later told him that he has racial issues that I didn’t feel like dealing with, although we could still be friends. It wasn’t just that incident, but others, that told me he had too many anti-black biases for me to deal with. And this was a guy who admitted finding black women attractive (he looooved Thelma from Good Times, for instance). So God only knows what lurks in the minds of others who can’t even admit to that.

I think status is an important factor in what draws a man to a woman romantically. A lot of men are sexually attracted to fat women, for instance, but would never marry one out of fear of catching flak from their peers. Strippers and sex industry professionals are also low on the totem pole of Bride Material for relatively high status men, even though as a group they’re very attractive. It’s all in how you define status. Men want women who are highly sought after but selective. A lot of white men who have angst about taking up with a black woman probably don’t want to be seen as taking a step down.

[Mijin]

@MeanOldLady

Except I don’t think she is. I would hesitate to narrow it down so specifically to status, but I do think it’s that there is a basic association between white and good, and black and bad. Someone earlier said he couldn’t get it up for Halle Berry, even though he recognizes that she is beautiful. Wtf?

I pretty much agree with everything you’ve said.

I’m one of the people upthread that said I like how black women look, and often think they have better personalities, but don’t find myself attracted to them.
Like the rest of my sex drive, it’s automatic, and I can’t tell you whether it’s inbuilt or something drummed into me by society.

And now, confession time…

I am mixed race, and was raised in a single parent family by my black mother. I am a product of the less common black woman white man pairing…
Growing up, the only black people I seemed to encounter were family.
Later in life as I noticed that I rarely went for black women, I assumed that that was the cause: that it would feel like incest or something to me.

But nowadays I’m not so sure, and thinking about it makes me uncomfortable. I feel a bit like I’ve been brainwashed.

btw In case someone accuses me of making a U-turn here, I never said we are attracted to people purely on looks (though it’s a big factor for men), and/or that black women are less attractive.
I was just calling BS on the status and novelty / bragging rights theories.

[raindrop]

Light-skinned black woman here. This is a response to those who don’t believe that black men pursue white women for their white skin. All my life I’ve been pursued by black men who openly admit that having a light-skinned woman is a status symbol of the highest priority. It’s just taken for granted that everyone in the black community knows this, because it’s always discussed as a matter of fact. And upon further questioning, (e.g. “but why does my light skin matter to you?”), they also admit that having a black woman with very light-skin is as close to getting a white woman as they ever hope to get. Granted there are black men who don’t feel this way, but even those men don’t deny that this type of thinking is prevalent among many in the community. I’m in my 50s, so I don’t really know how the younger black folks feel about, but this has certainly been common for many, many generations prior to mine.

So yes, I agree with those who say that white skin automatically makes a woman more attractive, even if she’s not really more attractive.

[Shodan]

@alice_in_wonderland

To me, that conclusion is totally absurd - they wanted to have sex with the ugly white woman because she was willing, and she was a novelty. Hotness or not-hotness had nothing to do with it (at least IMHO).

This is the claim that was made -

@descamisado

They just panting after her just because they wanted the opportunity to say they fucked a white girl…

It was not that they wanted to bang any willing woman - they specifically wanted to bang a white woman. The fact that she was white distinguished her from other women who were equally willing, equally unattractive, but not white.

Being able to brag about having sex with a white woman raises your status for a black man. This is not the case after having sex with a black woman. There is something about having sex with white women that does not exist regarding sex with black women. Therefore, this extra factor makes white women more “attractive”, all other things being equal.

This is not something that is inherent in black or white - it is a function of the relative status of blacks and whites in America.

A black man having sex with a black woman is not thereby entitled to “bragging rights” about having bagged a higher-status partner than himself. Nor is a white man having sex with a black woman entitled to such bragging rights. (Nor is a white man having sex with a white woman - that is because white men and white women are considered socially equal.)

Regards,
Shodan

[alice_in_wonderland]

@Shodan

This is not the case after having sex with a black woman.

Then why, oh wise one, were my WHITE husband and all his WHITE coworkers gagging to get with a black woman?

This next statement makes hubby sound like a tool, but he actually LIED and said he had been with a black woman just for cred and to impress his friends. (Seriously, he told me this story and I was like ‘A - where on earth were you supposed to have met a black woman around here? and B- You’re such a tool.’)

Now look, in our city there are very few black women (or men for that matter) - in a city of over 1,000,000 there are about 15,000 black people which I suspect would make finding a black woman who was willing to put out that much more difficult, making ‘sex with a black woman’ that much more elusive.

Personally I think it’s the unattainability in both your example and mine that increases the desirability of the women in question - not the colour of their skin.

However, I’m not in the US and I can’t honestly remember if this discussion is supposed to be discussing only black women from there, or international black hotties as well.

[MeanOldLady]

@you_with_the_face

Aw shit, now I’m having painful flashbacks. I’ll never forget how my first lover (a dude of Italian and Lebanese descent) looked affectionately upon my face one evening while I was lying beside him in the nude and he lovingly remarked, stroking my cheek, “Wow, you almost look white, ywtf”.

Not “Wow, you are so beautiful” which is what my ESP tells me he was thinking. But instead out of his mouth came that shit. Made me throw up in my mouth, and not just a little bit.

And you know what? I’ll bet you $10 that if you ask these guys ($20 if you just want to stick with the ones I’ve known) if they’ve dated a black girl their reaction might be something like, “A few here and there, but they were basically white.” But they were basically white which, among the many things wrong with such a statement, roughly translates to “A few, but they were basically white which makes it okay.”

@alice_in_wonderland

Then why, oh wise one, were my WHITE husband and all his WHITE coworkers gagging to get with a black woman?

This next statement makes hubby sound like a tool, but he actually LIED and said he had been with a black woman just for cred and to impress his friends. (Seriously, he told me this story and I was like ‘A - where on earth were you supposed to have met a black woman around here? and B- You’re such a tool.’)

Now look, in our city there are very few black women (or men for that matter) - in a city of over 1,000,000 there are about 15,000 black people which I suspect would make finding a black woman who was willing to put out that much more difficult, making ‘sex with a black woman’ that much more elusive.

Ugh. The quickest way to be permanently barred from my vagina is to say something like “I’ve never slept with a black girl, but I’d like to.” Why thank you for making fucking me part of your little experiment, but why don’t you go fuck yourself instead?

[alice_in_wonderland]

@MeanOldLady

The quickest way to be permanently barred from my vagina is to say something like “I’ve never slept with a black girl, but I’d like to.” Why thank you for making fucking me part of your little experiment, but why don’t you go fuck yourself instead?

Heh - no kidding. One of my good friends is asian (and also a hottie) and when we were both single guys would actually approach her and say crap like Ooo, I love asian girls, I wanna be with an asian girl, blah, blah, blah.

She used to tell them to piss off 'cus she wasn’t interested in being someone’s fetish. Really, I think thats what it boils down to - if you’re surrounded by black women all over the place, maybe you find black woman sort of regular and white/asian/indian woman kind of exotic. If you’re surrounded by white women, maybe you find black/asian/indian women exotic.

I can tell you that when my very white, and kinda average brother was in Japan he was beating off Japanese women with a stick. Being somewhat naive about these things (seriously, bro does NOT get that kind of attention from women around here) he actually got his feelings hurt more than once by a Japanese gal having sex with him and then turning down a second date because she ‘Just wanted to have sex a white guy.’ Do I think my brother is inherently better looking than Japanese men? No, not at all - I think he was a novelty.

[AClockworkMelon]

I complain incessantly about having my previous image of MeanOldLady destroyed, but I think I like the new one better.

[alice_in_wonderland]

@AClockworkMelon

I complain incessantly about having my previous image of MeanOldLady destroyed, but I think I like the new one better.

Are you also imagining a small army of foot soldiers marching in front of her vagina keeping out undesirables?

[AClockworkMelon]

@alice_in_wonderland

Are you also imagining a small army of foot soldiers marching in front of her vagina keeping out undesirables?

No, but you’re now one of my favorite posters.