Some women think, “it’s okay – I know he loves me, and he said he was sorry, and it’s just that sometimes he loses his temper, but he also does this and this and this…” etc. Or, “I know, he was in a bad mood – I shouldn’t have provoked him.”
And then some guys will always say, “I’m sorry honey, blah blah blah.” It’s a viscious cycle.
Some women are in denial. Or they grew up in an abusive home, and see that as normal.
My specific puzzlement is not so much with desperate scenarios where a person living on the edge has no alternative, and is locked into the situation with kids or has absolutely no resources to go out on their own. My frustration is with people with options who are told point blank they need to stop actively abasing themselves, will remove their lips from the nipple of abasement for just a moment, wipe the milk of humiliation from around their mouths, and say effectively “But I can’t stop…it’s so tasty.”
While it makes some people touting the “Who are we to judge people who refuse to leave abusive scenarios” perspective feel morally yummy inside to think they are endlessly sympathetic I guarantee you there is a point at which people in the middle of trying to help or assist people addicted to self abasement reach burnout and sympathy turns into pity. My daughter is on the leading edge of this slide into an abusive relationship. Nothing anyone is saying, has any impact vs her overwhelming desire for connection to this abusive and disrespectful individual in this toxic long distance relationship. She has choices and is actively choosing to let this individual into her life.
My heart and my wallet will always be open to her if she is in need, but my “sympathy” for her life choices is dwindling and it is (to be honest) being replaced by resigned disgust.
I remember a few months ago you talking about how your daughter seems to have extremely low self esteem. So in a way I’m not surprised she is in a relationship with a jerk.
Either way, from what I know of it the victim/abuser dynamic can be tied into a few things.
http://www.enneagramspectrum.com/articles/malschema.htm
Again, from what I know of you and what I know of your daughter, I’d make sure she has healthy outlets she can go to when she needs someone to talk to. You sound dismissive of her (both in this thread and the earlier thread). But I hope she gets her life together before things spiral too far.
On another note, no one is an island. We humans are a social species and as a result, we have several vulnerabilities designed to make us obey our society and culture. These vulnerabilities can and are co-opted by bad people for bad purposes at times. In fact the people who say ‘I don’t let anyone tell me what to do, I’m my own person’ need to ask why do you believe that is a good thing? Did you evaluate your own beliefs and come to that conclusion, or are you just parroting the values of a society that places an emphasis on individualism? How many people who say “I’d never let anyone abuse me” say it because they are ashamed that other people will think less of them if they are abused? Social control, right there (saying what you need to say to avoid social stigma). Imagine that same social control driving you to pretend you are an autonomous island for fear of being ridiculed being co-opted by a destructive person or influence.
Read up on the Milgram experiments if you want evidence of what can happen when those tools of social control are co-opted. People will torture a stranger to death with very little provocation when the right psychological buttons are pushed. And I’m sure many of the people here engaging in ‘just world phenomena’ justifications for why it would never happen to them would be vulnerable too. In fact, they may be more vulnerable because they convince themselves that only weak or dumb people become victims. And if it happens to you, that makes you weak and dumb. So that can lead to denial because who wants to admit they are one of ‘those people’?
The point is, we humans are more vulnerable than we like to believe.
I’m not dismissive just very, very tired of this vortex of negativity and self abasement she seems to think is a comfort zone of some kind. If I was dismissive I really would not care at all. She has been clinging like a spider monkey to this “I’m not competent, no one could like me” theme since adolescence. Over hundreds (probably thousands) of hours of trying it is apparent you can’t reason or talk her out of it, and I’ m coming to the painful conclusion she is wired to think like this.
Short of a physical intervention where I kidnap her make her go to a therapist and force her to do what? “Think positive thoughts” “Be proactive” I’m kind of out of ammo.
Beyond this the whole “people who put up with abuse were probably abused as children” gong people keep banging on as the reason people put up with toxic, abusive people is (IMO) highly questionable as a universal explanation. If it’s a nature/nurture scenario I’m coming to the conclusion that some people are just wired to want drama, confrontation and abuse in their relationships and if they aren’t getting it they are not happy.
I don’t know your daughter, but do you have any idea why she is so constantly clingy and filled with drama? Do you know why she has such a low opinion of herself? Has anything really bad (humiliating, tragic, overwhelming, etc) happened to her in her life that she hasn’t faced up to yet? I don’t know what role nature vs nurture plays in these situations. Has your daughter been screened for any anxiety disorders?
Anyway, I don’t know what to tell you. My brother is in a relationship that everyone but him knows is going to spiral downward. I actually printed off a list of ‘20 signs you are in a relationship with an abuser’ sat down with him and went over them one by one with him and pointed out how his fiancee has 14+ of those signs. His response was to get angry for a week, then go back to her.
I wish there was an easy solution to these problems. If there is, I don’t know it.
I suspect that’s what a woman that I know was thinking; she stayed with her husband even though he did abuse their children, even though she still had a good relationship with her parents (who were wealthy and could have helped her), even though her kids when they got older physically drove her to a lawyer’s office more than once.
Her now-adult kids are pretty damned screwed up from the abuse they got. Some blame her too for not protecting them, and some still reflexively side with their abusive dad, since that was their best chance of protection while growing up.
I took her to a psychiatrist about 5-6 years ago and after 3 sessions he gave her meds for social anxiety which she promptly “lost” (ie threw out). She has blown off most of the appointments this past semester with the college counselor (overslept - not convenient etc.). She’s not passive at all when it comes to her preferences. She is intelligent, stubborn, and on occasion, extremely manipulative in getting what she wants. She wants what she wants, and that this scenario and drama where she is cursed, disrespected and abased is (apparently) what she wants is distressing.
Yes, I’m firmly of the opinion that not being abused is generally best for people. I’m narrow-minded like that. And you’re right, it’s not my call. But I’m also of the opinion that with “lives in the balance”, my primary responsibility is not necessarily to be sensitive.
Tinkertoy, 16 in 1975 is indeed a game changer. I’m sorry for what happened to you. I’m curious though, whether you think that it would have been different if the resources available now had been available to you then.
The victim may not know she is being abused.
I didn’t know.
He didn’t hit me. If he had, I might have figured it out. But don’t discount psychological abuse because it doesn’t break bones.
I didn’t realize that I was being abused because I had so internalized the idea that I deserved it. That he was allowed to be my judge, jury, and executioner. And I also fully believed that if anybody knew of any of it, they would be 110% on his side, because he was such a great guy and I was a piece of crap. I believed that I was always wrong and that I didn’t deserve anything.
Once I started realizing and admitting to myself that something was very wrong, I second-guessed myself mercilessly. (Sometimes I still do–I often say “oh, it wasn’t that bad” and blame myself yet again. But I’m slowly working through that.)
I was very very lucky. I have an incredibly supportive family and wonderful friends. When I first told my mom about the abuse, her first reaction was to doubt what I said. I hid things pretty well. But her second reaction (which only took a couple of minutes to get to) was like “now that you mention it, a few things that I’ve noticed do fit that pattern…” That gave me confidence in my assessment of the situation. As it turns out, my best friend had thought things were really screwed up for a long time, and once I was open to the discussion, she provided a TON of validation. My brother had a really hard time accepting it, and I still don’t know if he really has, but I think his wife talked some sense into him.
And speaking of luck–my mom was able to provide the financial support I needed to get out of the situation. I had no control over my own finances at that point, and my husband’s egregious financial mismanagement meant that there was no money to be had anyway. I don’t know what I would have done if my mom hadn’t offered to help me. I think there’s a pretty good chance that I would still be in the relationship.
I suspect that it’s akin to alcoholism. First, you have to accept that there is a problem. Only then can you take action. And you need help and support to do it.
I’m sure you’re wondering how a woman can not accept that there is a problem when she’s sporting a black eye. Well, to echo what Ruby Sees said, it’s very hard to understand unless you’ve experienced it or have studied it extensively. Fortunately, I haven’t experienced the black eye part, but based on what I did experience, well, let’s just say that I get it.
Astro–I have no useful advice for you with regard to your daughter, but my heart goes out to you. I know what it’s like to feel that a loved one is being abused. It must be way worse if it’s your own child. Therapy is probably the answer, but obviously she doesn’t want it. Perhaps you could call a local counseling center and see if they have any advice about how to get her to actually go to therapy.
And if you like, I’ll ask my own therapist if she has any advice. Abuse is her specialty. Let me know.
Unless there’s something you haven’t mentioned that would drastically change what you’re saying here, I can guarantee you that I’ve tried to assist more people in the last couple of weeks who are in this situation than you’ve ever met. It’s (part of) my job. And yet here I am feeling pretty shitty (as opposed to “morally yummy,” which thanks for that) about this entire thread, because such a large number of posters are so convinced that they just know what’s going on in the victims’ minds. “Burnout” is one thing, but losing sympathy for the victims, you’re wrong about.
It’s not a play-acting scenario for a victim of domestic abuse. They are not choosing from a multiple choice answer set what the most rational response would be, like “What if somebody I had two children with blackened both of my eyes once every couple of weeks, and told me he could do far worse to any of us at the drop of a hat, but then later spooned me and cried and said he loved me, what would I do then?” It is a battle being waged on their own personal physical and emotional integrity, sometimes daily or more frequently, involving actual human beings in the course of what is actually the only life that any of them have with which to contextualize anything. That has never happened to me, and I’ll wager it has never happened to you. That being the case, when somebody who has lived through it tells me that in fact, the solution was not such an obvious one, that it came with very clear and dramatic costs, that it often seemed a literally factually impossible thing to attempt, I don’t feel like it requires an overwhelming surge of goodwill to muster up a bit of compassion. Even a court of law doesn’t apply the same standard of prudence to a person in that situation; why on earth should I be required to?
It is insulting to the (mostly) women trapped in these situations that we’re talking about the tasty milk of humiliation – which phrase out of respect for the subject matter I’m going to refrain from focusing on, but come on now – and saying that oh, they could do this, they could do that, they could do something, not the least because there are how many actual victims in this thread explaining what happens.
Most importantly, for every victim out there who is told they should just get out, that they bear responsibility at that point for what’s happening to them, it’s been my experience that at least a significant proportion of those victims hear in that statement an emphatic affirmation of what they’ve suspected all along - that in fact the abuse is attributable to them; that it’s their fault just like they and the abuser apparently have always felt. That dramatic therapeutic moment that you see in for instance Good Will Hunting with the “It’s not your fault. It’s not your fault. It’s not your fault,” as it turns out, is despite being cliched also incredibly profound. It’s maybe the most important thing that you can offer to a victim of abuse, because it’s the one thing that is most likely to allow the victim to consider a healthier alternative as an actual alternative. Asking “how much sympathy do you deserve,” which in the cold light of day is certainly not the same thing as saying “It’s your fault,” is close enough as to be a problematic perspective to have, and that’s not measured in some PC feel-good brownie points, as you seem to suggest. That’s measured by the likelihood that it will materially help the victim. If you understood that, I think you’d be a lot more sympathetic and simultaneously a lot more able to talk to someone close to you about it in a productive (for both of you) way.
I have sympathy for you and your daughter, too, but I really don’t think it was at all fair of you to title this thread and frame your argument the way that you did. Your daughter is dating an emotionally manipulative jackass who certainly seems quite abusive. That does not give you a window into the souls of the victims of more severe traumas.
This +1. You fall in love with a person who you find out has an outrageous temper. You love this person, and want them to be happy, so you try to dig at the root of their outbursts. You may be tempted to look inward and think that you are part of the problem. Everyone else sees the bruises on your face, but you see deep down the true person underneath the exterior and want to bring that out.
Most abused women that I know are “fixers” like this. They have a motherly instinct that wants to “help” the abuser overcome what is causing him to be abusive.
There have been some really wonderful posts in this thread. I just wanted to be positive. And I think even the negative aren’t as bad as some of the other things I’ve read elsewhere.
Anyway, I singled this quote out because I have to second it. I was in a group setting and one of the women was still in her relationship and he had done some real bad stuff to her the day before. She was really hard on herself and kept saying “I must be doing something to make him this mad.” It was terrible to watch and hear. So I kept saying “It’s not your fault” over and over again to her. I don’t think it entirely sunk in then, but I think some of it got through. I still think about her and worry about her, hope that she realized it ISN’T her fault. I don’t know how much I helped her, but it was one of the things I was proudest of in that group setting.
Despite being told that I did deserve it, my issues with that didn’t run as deep as with others and sometimes I knew it was NOT my fault at all. I still say to myself almost daily “I did not deserve this.” I actually haven’t had many people say it to me and it has meant so much when they do.
I’m a guy, but I was the same way with my ex. She came in to the relationship incredibly damaged, and I thought putting up with the rages and blaming was part and parcel of being a compassionate, stand-up dude.
I mean, what are you gonna do when the person you love is standing there holding a razor blade to their wrist, telling you simultaneously that a) it’s your fault that they’ve sunk this low, and b) you’re the only one that can save them? And you can forget about calling 911 - that’ll just send them further over the edge.
What about they have low self-esteem/insecure or they don’t know what a good realtionship is?
And the thing is…the damn good reason for being in the realationship seems to boil down to " Oh he’s a wonderful man! You really don’t know our LOVE" :rolleyes:
Point taken …there’s abuse, and then there’s abuse. Her enabling/not preventing disrespect of herself to hang onto a relationship is not in the same league as people who are being molested and beaten. IMO, however, it’s a slippery slope, and unless she has some epiphany about the way she should be treated she’s ripe for someone to go further than calling her names and making outrageous demands.
But your point is taken it’s apples and oranges and not a fair comparison.
I don’t know who exactly you’re speaking of (or even if you have any real life experience with a victim of abuse), but that’s one of the most unfair characterizations of another person that I’ve ever read.
Most victims of abuse have a host of reasons why they remain in an abusive relationship, and the majority of those reasons can’t even be articulated by said victim until they are out of said relationship (and usually not for some time afterward). Whether it be low self-esteem (usually compounded by the psychological abuse that is far more prevalent than physical), economic reasons (as has been elucidated upthread, often economic control is one of the primary vehicles of control in an abusive relationship), lack of supportive social networks (abusers often cut their victims off from friends and family), there are many different shackles that a woman must break free from before she can leave an abusive relationship. Please, read back through this thread as there are many very well-written posts about this subject here that I hope will open your eyes.
As another poster wrote here, if you choose to believe that these victims of abuse aren’t “worthy” of your sympathy, at the very least, don’t be contemptuous of them.
You’re correct that it can indeed be a slippery slope for your daughter, and from reading some of your previous responses, it seems that she’s not amenable to receiving therapy, but it also doesn’t seem like you respect the process of therapy much either (not trying to make undeserved assumptions, just basing it off the “think positive thoughts/be proactive” characterization of psychiatry).
If I may be so bold to make a suggestion, part of the issue may be that you need to go with her to her sessions; not to necessarily be in the session with her, but to escort her there and perhaps help her process afterward. Therapy is rarely just about “thinking positive thoughts,” but more often about putting a mirror up to someone’s face and forcing them to look at themselves in a way they haven’t done before. Often, effective counseling can occur over a few weeks, and aren’t the stereotypical “tell me about your childhood” nonsense that is the prevalent meme on the subject. A good therapist can focus on this particular situation and help provide some valuable insight, processing through the situation fairly quickly. If she refuses to go, and you honestly feel it’s going to lead down a slippery slope for your daughter, perhaps asking her friends and other family members to stage an intervention may be a good idea. The unfortunate comparison to alcoholism can be apt.
I don’t mean to weigh in on your personal affairs or tell you what to do, I merely am trying to provide some advice through my own knowledge and experience of the subject. I hope it helps, and I wish the best for you and your daughter.
astro, did you say how old she is? Is she dependent upon you for money or a place to live?
astro, I think that in your daughter’s case the question would be “what does she get out of it?” It doesn’t sound like the other abusive relationships I’m familiar with (which aren’t always with SOs).
We know she gets to rile Daddy up, i.e., to control you, a person who in theory has got authority/control over her (although not as much now that she’s officially a grown-up). Apparently she also enjoys drama in general. Maybe she’s in this particular relationship, not because she can’t figure a way out / doesn’t realize she’s being abused / believes He’s The One, etc (we know it’s not because you wouldn’t be there for her, for which I personally thank you as my own mother was certainly not there for me) - but because it’s the Most Drama-Worthy relationship she’s been able to find so far.