Are There Any Islamic "Peace Groups?"

[IzzyR]

GorrilaMan, I’m talking about support for things like suicide bombers etc. I’ll try to find you a cite if I get a chance. But I am hastening to wrap things up at the office before taking an extended absence.

@Zagadka

I wish they had a right to free speech so they could. Most people in the Soviet Union weren’t too keen on the idea of MAD (well, those who knew about it), but there wasn’t much chance for them to really organize and protest, as opposed to the US. It makes you feel a bit more grateful for what free speech is all about. They also don’t have access to the kinds of mass media that we are used to. It doesn’t help that most of the people who are against the violence support the cause, though.

It is my understanding, from what I’ve read, that it is the terrorists and their supporters who are being suppressed, more than the anti-terrorists. IOW, most Muslim governments are more anti-terror than their populations are.

(Government censorship is more often used to supress anti-Western sentiments than pro-western.)

I think it is often a premise of democracy that the people are basically good, and any evil is to be attributed to bad rulers. This is not necessarily the case.

[Zagadka]

@IzzyR

It is my understanding, from what I’ve read, that it is the terrorists and their supporters who are being suppressed, more than the anti-terrorists. IOW, most Muslim governments are more anti-terror than their populations are.

(Government censorship is more often used to supress anti-Western sentiments than pro-western.)

I think it is often a premise of democracy that the people are basically good, and any evil is to be attributed to bad rulers. This is not necessarily the case.

In some contries, true. In other countries, untrue. We aren’t dealing with a homogenous group here… they have diverse governments. Granted, most Muslim governments are officially very hesitant to take an anti-American standing, but that does not mean that they are bastions of free speech. I’m sure that most of their governments were being honest when they expressed dismay and sadness after 9/11.

For instance, Iran had been trying very hard to develop relations with the United States, despite trying to keep a cap on its own population. Keep in mind that there is only one independent Muslim news station. In most cases, it is a matter of foreign relations, from what I’ve seen. The Taliban were the first to speak up of their outrage about 9/11. Like many other things, we have driven that subversion underground, so it is hard to tell who is hostile and how hostile they are.

[sqweels]

@lambchops

Sqweels, why should they have to? Presuming you’re American, did you travel to Japan to apologize for Hiroshima or to Iraq to apologize for civilian deaths in the last 15 years?

So no Americans ever went to Hiroshima as part of a peace movement? Didn’t Sean Penn go to Iraq? Or how about Jane Fonda? Still, these aren’t very good analogies. A better analogy would be if my parents had emigrated from the US to, say, France and American right-wing militias were trying to destroy France with terrorist attacks. In that case, as an American-Frenchman I would be happy to come to the US and/or go on CNN to stick up for France and criticize the anti-French equivilent of white supramicists or whatever.

Why should they have to? You mean besides the fact that their co-religionists are trying to destroy their country? Those Muslims in Malaysia didn’t have to turn out to protest the US operation in Afghanistan but they made it their business anyway. Should they have it both ways? When bad things happen to fellow Muslims they make it their business, but not when fellow Muslims do bad things to others.

You get a lot of American Muslims on TV criticizing Homeland Security and telling fellow Americans they’ve got the wrong idea about Islam. These are valid concerns, but they pale in comparison to the threat of Islamic Jihad. American Muslims are in a unique position to–to exaggerate a bit–save the World. You’d think that some few would want to give it a try.

[Kimstu]

sqweels: A better analogy would be if my parents had emigrated from the US to, say, France and American right-wing militias were trying to destroy France with terrorist attacks. In that case, as an American-Frenchman I would be happy to come to the US and/or go on CNN to stick up for France and criticize the anti-French equivilent of white supramicists or whatever.

I’m trying to figure out why you think that would do any good. Why would terrorist militias listen to you? Just because you’re American by descent? Wouldn’t they be more likely to fume about your being a French-loving traitor and plan their next attack on your city? And as for the vast majority of Americans who don’t support terrorist militia attacks on France—what would you be telling them that they don’t already know?

*American Muslims are in a unique position to–to exaggerate a bit–save the World. *

Again, I don’t really get your reasoning here. You think that Islamist terrorists would react with something like “Oh my goodness, there are Muslims living over there in the Great Satan! We didn’t know that! And wow, they say that the place isn’t actually so bad. Hey, cancel the next scheduled attack, Salim, we’ve obviously had the wrong idea about all this”?

I don’t mean to be snide if you’ve really got a point here, but I confess that so far I’m not seeing it.

[sqweels]

Well, maybe they wouldn’t be all that influential. But pro-American, anti-jihad Muslim voices need to be heard over there. When non-Muslim Americans condemn jihad it only reinforces the notion that America is “against Islam”. The views of fellow Muslims couldn’t be so easily dismissed.

I believe that our only hope lies in “triangulation”. Liberal Americans, Europeans, and liberal Muslims must unite to counter Bush and bin Laden et al. If no liberal Muslims stand up it can’t work.

[DSeid]

Well, I recall, but cannot find the cite, reading that a group of Arab intellectuals urged restraint in response to the Israeli action, with peaceful protests

As to the pervasiveness of attitudes there is this recent Pew Research report that documents the magnitude of support for suicide bombings

Even in Turkey, where bin Laden is highly unpopular, as many as 31% say that suicide attacks against Americans and other Westerners in Iraq are justifiable. Majorities in all four Muslim nations surveyed doubt the sincerity of the war on terrorism. Instead, most say it is an effort to control Mideast oil and to dominate the world.
…
Overwhelming majorities in Jordan and Morocco believe suicide attacks against Americans and other Westerners in Iraq are justifiable. As a point of comparison, slightly more people in those two countries say the same about Palestinian suicide attacks against Israelis.

About half of Pakistanis also say suicide attacks on Americans in Iraq – and against Israelis in the Palestinian conflict – are justifiable.

Fewer respondents in Turkey agree, but slightly more Turks view suicide attacks on Americans in Iraq as justifiable as say the same about Palestinian attacks on Israelis (31% vs. 24%).

[sqweels]

Majorities in all four Muslim nations surveyed doubt the sincerity of the war on terrorism. Instead, most say it is an effort to control Mideast oil and to dominate the world.

My point is simply that if American Muslims can’t convince these people that they’re wrong then no one can.

[DSeid]

Ah, but sqweels, it is on this point that you might have a hard time finding someone able to make the case with a straight face. At least they are far from alone in that assessment. From the same Pew Research report:

Large majorities in almost every country surveyed think that American and British leaders lied when they claimed, prior to the Iraq war, that Saddam Hussein’s regime had weapons of mass destruction. On balance, people in the United States and Great Britain disagree. Still, about three-in-ten in the U.S. (31%) and four-in-ten in Great Britain (41%) say leaders of the two countries lied to provide a rationale for the war.

<snip>

At least half the people in countries other than the U.S. say as a result of the war in Iraq they have less confidence that the United States is trustworthy. Similarly, majorities in all eight of these countries say they have less confidence that the U.S. wants to promote democracy globally.

The erosion of confidence in the U.S. – in its trustworthiness and its commitment to promote democracy – is particularly apparent in Germany and France. Compared with the other countries surveyed, more people in Germany and France say as a consequence of the war they have less confidence that the U.S. is trustworthy (82% Germany, 78% France).

And nearly eight-in-ten French respondents (78%) – a higher percentage than any other country surveyed – say that because of the war they have less confidence that the U.S. is intent on promoting democracy around the world. Seven-in-ten Germans agree.

A large percentage of the world, including many Americans, see little connection between the Iraqi fiasco and: a war on terror; or some alleged Iraqi threat to the West; or promoting democratic values. It is broadly percieved as an effort (and an unsuccessful effort at that) to control oil and to be the imperial world power.

I doubt that any American Muslim outreach would convince the majority of Arabs that the US is really a trustworthy ally selflessly promoting democratic values. Or that suicide bombings against innocent civilians is wrong. Not when Bush is having us play the part exactly as OBL had it written in his wildest dreams.

[Northern_Piper]

@GorillaMan

I can’t offhand think of a single “Christian Peace Group”.

Then you haven’t been looking. Tolerance.org is a good starting place. Most Christian peace groups tend to be grassroots organizations, that come together in national or international federations, either within their denomination, or in some cases in ecumencial organizations.