Are you referring to a married woman being called Mrs John Doe or adopting her husband’s surname at all? If the first, the proper uses of Mrs. John Doe are limited. Mail addressed to a married woman who uses her husband’s surname would use Mrs. John Doe on the envelope, but the letter contained therein would be addressed to Mary or Mrs. Doe (no first name), depending on who the letter is from. In a membership directory or something similar, the couple would be listed as Mr. and Mrs John Doe (Mary). Nobody is ever going to call her John or Mrs. John. And a woman should not introduce herself with any title, rather say something along the lines of “Hello, I’m Mary Doe” adding “John’s wife” or something similar if the additional indentification is considered helpful or desirable.
If you are referring to the latter, I don’t see the problem with a couple sharing a last name to show they are a unit. It could be the last name he was given at birth, the last name she was given at birth, or another name that they choose together.
Man, talk about fighting ignorance. I knew that oldsters would use “Mrs. John Doe” but I had no idea there were actual etiquette rules about what you’re called if you’re divorced or a widow, or that it’s “improper” to go back to your maiden name once divorced (STILL don’t see the reason for it being improper).
My 85yr old widowed grandmother still goes by Mrs John Doe, even though my grandfather has been dead for 20 years. In her case, I’ve had the impression that it’s a social status thing.
Grandpa was the town doctor in a small town of about 200 people. Grandma was one of his nurses. It seemed to me that being the wife of the doctor put Grandma at the top of the social ladder in this town, something that being a nurse didn’t do. Heck, her phone listing is still under Grandpa’s name.
I mostly find it in letters addressed by my grandfather-in-law. Which are usually accompanied by a shout from my wife of “Hey, do you know a Mrs. Zeriel ZerLastName, we got a letter for her.”
It seems to be only used by older traditionalists who are sufficiently rude as to not accept corrections, or used to refer to older traditionalists.
Yeah, but isn’t Spanish the language where the names are all something like “Juan, who’s father’s last name is Doe, who’s mother’s last name is Roe, and who comes from Seville, except when he’s visiting his cousins in Madrid”?
Frankly, I’ll take any degree of screwed-up English way of doing it over that clusterfrak.
You mean “John Doe (dad’s first last name) Roe (mom’s first last name)”? And what is wrong with recognizing the person is product and member of different families and of two different people with different last names?
I don’t see the screw up with that, but then I grew up that way. At least it tells me the last names of both parents (since women don’t change their names when they marry). Also, since the parents’ first last name would come from their respective fathers, the complete name tells you the first last names of both grandfathers.
I see that as being more easy to follow if you’re interested in genealogy than the English naming system. YMMV.
Well at say a company dinner with spouses invited, the wife is indeed merely an extension of someone else, she has only been invited because of her relationship. As well as husband’s who have been invited. In many social situations, a persons relationship to another person is what matters.
So a man who is invited along with his wife would change his name to that of his wife? he would be addressed by his wife’s maiden name? I don’t think so.
My Spanish aunt goes by a name that is of the form Jane Smith Doe, Doe being her husband’s surname, so it seems to me that there is such as thing a s a married name in Spain.
Nope. Her legal name does not change during her lifetime. She will die with the name she was born with, just like a man (unless she legally changes it for some reason).
Socially she can be invited as the wife of her husband but that is kind of old fashioned and well on the way out.
If you want to send ME a letter send me one with [MY firstname] [surname]. DO NOT send to Mrs. [HIS firstname] [surname] because I will not open it. My first name is different from my husband’s first name. Referring to me in ANY context with my husband’s first name is offensive to me. Very offensive.
That’s what I mean - when can we stop the nonsense of addressing a woman using her husband’s name? Tradition is NOT a good enough excuse to maintain this nonsense. It used to be traditional to keep slaves, too, but we don’t do that any more.
When you address something to a woman as “Mrs John Doe” yes, you ARE addressing her by HIS name!
Matters of surname are subject to negotiation between the parties involved and that’s NOT what I’m talking about.
Explain to me WHY, in a business context, an inquiry can not be made as to the legal or preferred name of the spouse in question? Seriously, WHY? There is no reason, other than antiquated tradition, laziness, and a humiliating disregard of women as full human beings. It would be unthinkable for a man to be addressed in an equivalent manner at a company dinner, therefore it should be unacceptable to do this to a woman.
One of the things I used to do in corporate America was, in fact, finding out the proper name of peoples’ spouses for things like company gatherings. There is no excuse for this outdated practice any longer.
I’m sorry, but it is still not clear to me whether you are objecting to usages such as “Mrs. J. M. Lloyd” (which is how the tennis player Chris Evert was billed at Wimbledon when she was married to John Lloyd), or you are objecting to the whole idea of married women taking their husband’s surname (like “C. Lloyd”).
You know, most people who I have dealt with in that situation, have’nt really had a problem with it. Men and women. My mothers last name was’nt even the same as my dads, and she earnt a lot more than him most of their married life, and yet she had no problem being called Mrs Ak84’s lastname whenever it was a social situation.
Just to clarify - I am NOT objecting to a woman taking her husband’s surname, or keeping her maiden surname, or making a new one up out of whole cloth.
What I am objecting to is addressing her as [HIS firstname][his surname if different].
Let’s say my first name is Sally, my husband’s name is Bob, and we both have the surname Smith:
Proper: Mrs. Sally Smith
Outrageously offensive: Mrs. Bob Smith.
Sally’s name is not Bob. Her name is Sally. Why the HELL would you refer to anyone by someone else’s name? Unless of course Sally has no legal identity of her own and is Bob’s property… which supposedly is not the case, right?
If her name is Chris Evert why the &*(@! is she being called by someone else’s name? It’s insanely stupid. If her name is Chris Evert that’s how she should be referred to. How on Earth did this stupid custom ever get started? It’s certainly not a universal human custom.
I am sorry, how can you construe calling someone Mrs John Doe as being indicative of husband having property rights over them?
If I know the husband and I really don’t know the wife, I am sorry, its Mrs. John Doe until as such a time I am told differently. And I will respect their wishes if they indicate that they wish to be called something else.
Probably Jane Smith of Doe. And like sailor said, most of the time it is not a legal name change, but a social name change. Her legal papers, her legal documents, her accounts, are all to her given birth name. There is just a clause somewhere saying that that Jane Smith Roe is the same person as Jane Smith of Doe (due to marriage). And that social convention lasts as long as the marriage lasts.
For example, my granny was married for 40 years to grandpa. Her legal names were her given names, but in her checks, and the way she referred to herself in social situations, it was “granny something of Grenze”. For business things (she was a lawyer), her proper titles and given last names were used (and she used them); “Lcda. (title for a lawyer) Granny Something Somethingother”. After grandpa died, she eventually remarried, and now she goes by “Granny Something of nonGrenze”.
Of course, this is all custom… Mom almost never uses the “of Grenze” part, usually only in parts where she is being introduced to distant cousins or someone who only knows my dad. She MUCH prefers her given title (also a laywer, so no Sra./Mrs.), Lcda.
At least it tells me the last names of both parents (since women don’t change their names when they marry). Also, since the parents’ first last name would come from their respective fathers, the complete name tells you the first last names of both grandfathers.