I am aware of that. Your personal tactic is to make overbroad condemnations of “unnamed” persons so that if anyone objects to your attack you can either put on your disingenuity suit and ask “Are you claiming to be one of the unnamed?” or else you can do some handwaving and pretend you were talking about the “other” people. That tactic is well within the rules; it simply identifies what sort of poster you are.
I am not sure what you are on about, here. I made a direct statement to the raindog regarding his behavior. You replied to me with a leading (and obviously dishonest) question. I displayed the courtesy to actually respond to you, anyway, explaining my actions and, in that context, your question, here, makes no sense. What are you pretending may or may not be an “official ruling” in the clever clipping of the clause you have quoted?
I don’t know if this is the most powerful post I’ve seen on this topic, or if it just came at the exact right time. I’ll try not to fawn over it.
To start with, I agree with every single word. The fact that tomndebb thought otherwise is evidence that he doesn’t understand my argument, or the larger paradigm.
By way of analogy, you with the face’s great, great grandfather was a slave; his great grandfather was a sharecropper. Both were illiterate. His grandfather was a porter that moved the family from Mississippi to Flint Michigan for the chance of a better life. He got a job at Buick City, working for the UAW. His son followed him into “the shop.” In 1954 the modern civil rights movement was born, spearheaded by some guy named King. (and many others, not as well known) There was upheaval all around. In 1964, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed by LBJ. In 1969, you with the face was born. He was a beautiful baby, and his parents wanted the best for him.
Across town the same day, tomndebb was born. you with the face’s dad worked for tomndebb’s dad at Buick City. tomndebb’s dad had an MBA; you with the face’s dad had struggled, but finally earned a GED he was proud of. Strangely enough, they were both from Mississippi, and it so happens that you with the face’s great grandfather worked tomndebb’s great grandfather’s land.
One day in 1986 tomndebb came in from school and his parents were waiting for him. On the table were the current issues of US News & World Report and Business Week; their annual rankings of America’s colleges. (tomndebb’s dad subscribes to both) There were college applications, and reams of information on loans, and grants.
The next day, you with the face came in and asked his dad, “What’s a Pell Grant?” His dad replied, “I don’t know.”
In time, tomndebb graduated with a law degree from the University of Michigan. At about the same time, you with the face’s dad called in a favor at the local and got you with the face a job in skilled trades down at the shop, at $31 per hour.
In 1991, tomndebb was named partner. The same year, the shop closed and you with the face was laid off. He now works at Auto Zone for $11.50 per hour.
Was the difference in the lives of tomndebb and you with the face racism? No.
Was it the effects of racism? Yes.
The fact is, had you with the face’s grandfather attempted to attend Ole Miss he would have been met at the door by the Governor. (If not killed)
by 1987, you with the facehimself would have been met by a counselor, given subsidized housing, tutors if needed, and subsidized meals and books. In fact, if there were few slots left, you with the face could likely have received enrollment even if his SATs were less than tomndebb’s, in effect bumping tomndebb.
Dealing with the effects of racism require different methods than fighting racism.
I suspect that if we dropped off the SDMB Victim Class (and their white patrons) in 1946 Berlin the conclusion would be that the war was still on.
tomndebb: “Look, the city is in ruins.” raindog: “Yes, but the war is over now. it’s time to rebuild.” you with the face: “No way. We’ve got to find every single last Nazi.” raindog: “That’s not necessary. They’ve been beaten. They can’t hurt you now.” jsgoddess: “This is the dumbest conversation ever. I hate Illinois nazis.” (obscure movie reference) tomndebb: The bones! Look at the Bones! (another obscure movie reference) The war can’t be over!" raindog: “tomndebb, you don’t see planes, do you? Do you hear mortar shells?” tomndebb: “No way I’m trusting you.” monstro: “I think the Allies see Socialism and Nazis in purely intellectual terms” All:“Has anyone asked Askia?” miss elizabeth: “As a white person I try very hard to recognize that I am privileged to a lifestyle Jewish people will not have in my lifetime.” raindog: " I assure you, the war is over. Our efforts should be towards rebuidling, not fighting." tomndebb: “So you’re saying the war never happened?!” raindog: “Of course not.” tomndebb:“For God’s sake, you’re denying the holocaust!” raindog: “Tom! That’s absurd!” jsgoddess: “I’ll bet you wouldn’t say that to Gary Sheffield. He’ll kick your ass!” raindog: “Instead of buying more tanks, I suggest we buy back hoes, and bulldozers.” Monstro: “How will I fight the Nazi cab drivers?” raindog: “Do we need to?” Guinastasia: “You should have run him over” raindog: “Look around you. There are no Nazis firing on us. No planes. No tanks. No mortar shells. " tomndebb: " But someone was killed yesterday by a sniper. I say we need tanks, thousands of them.” raindog: “Yes, but we don’t respond to snipers with tanks. We are vigilant and we have the necessary weapons for that threat. I assure you that we have appealed to the german population and let them know that we intend no harm. Former Nazis are invited to join us, as long as they reoudiate Nazism.” you with the face: They won’t. raindog: Some won’t. Those we will fire. Some we will jail. Some we will kill. But our efforts should be towards retraining our soldiers to be carpenters and bricklayers. Our efforts should be towards rebuilding. It’s called Affirmitive Action. " Little Nemo: “Do you even know a Jew? Huh?” raindog: “Uh, well…” Sumisu_919: “Liar! He’s a Jew Hater!” Hippy Hollow: “Sure enough. He’s in Denial.”
Which is why you still haven’t answered the question I asked you.
Either you believe a black kid has a higher advantage over a white kid at sports. Or you don’t. Yes or no.
Why can’t you answer a damn question, Shodan? Is it because you know within your heart that something is wrong with your answer? There’s no point of you participating in this discussion if you are too cowardly too express your beliefs.
It is interesting, the raindog, that not one word that you just posted corresponds to anything I have actually said in this thread, yet you have my name figure prominently in your little morality play.
In other words, you are, indeed, ignoring everything I post and are simply trying to invent a position for me against which you can flail.
Note that in my very first post, here, I noted that I did not think that the failure of the levees, the failures of FEMA, or any of the other issues leading to the Katrina disaster were the direct result of racism–not even in the past. I have addressed only actual and current racist actions and events.
I have mentioned the issues of history affecting the present, but that has not been the thruist of my identification of actual racism. (And you are still hiding from the actual meaning of institutional racism.)
If you are going to argue against straw men, please refrain from putting my name on them.
What you’re saying here is that because some members of an organization are racists to whatever degree they are individually, it means that the organization is racist in its’ entirety because it employs them, am I right?
That seems to be a pretty stark misreading. The observation was where an organization had an “understanding” thatr permeated the whole group. A single HR or department manager exercising his or her own prejudices and refusing to hire certain people would not condemn the whole organization. An organization in which all the “right” words were posted in the HR manuals, but a lot of winking and nudging let everyone know that the company was not friendly to the “wrong” groups would be racist.
To follow up that last point: I worked at a company that had an active outreach hiring policy. They made a concerted effort to find qualified candidates from everywhere, resulting in a slightly higher than normal percent of black programmers for the area. Within that company, however, I knew specific managers who made it a point to bring in only mivnority candidates whit crappy resumes, knowing that the candidate would be turned down by other managers but that that manager could wave paperwork at HR and say “I tried.” That organization is hardly to be blamed for the actions of individual managers.
My HR SIL worked for a company who had her write up a very good fairness in employment document. She later heard that after she presented it to the president and he thanked her profusely, when she left the room he announced to his managers that “Well, we’ve covered our asses with the EEOC, but I don’t expect any of you to follow thie stuff.” Not racist?
OK, but you’re talking about a serious hypothetical here. You can KNOW it cough-OJ Simpson-cough, but you can’t PROVE it. That’s the fulcrum uopn which the entire argument rests IMO.
If you can prove to a civil court level standard that an entire organization is acting in a racist manner, (which, by it’s own merits is almost impossible unless page 1 of the HR manual says “we don’t hire Mexicans”) then action against that organization (if it is applicable) should be taken. Otherwise, the current laws, regulations and mores of our society have beaten racism back to the point where it can be educated out of the next two or three generations (or more) of school children. What’s in place in the wink-wink, nudge-nudge world of today simply won’t go away.
I wonder as well however, based on the 2005 Census numbers I quoted previously, if what some people perceive as the existance of ingrained racism is simply a matter of mathematics.
To wit:
Total: 282,820,953 98.1 +/-63,453
White 215,333,394 74.7 +/-115,546
Black 34,962,569 12.1 +/-41,001
Hispanic 41,870,703 14.5 +/-10,385
We’re talking about what, a 5 or 6 to 1 ratio white to black and white to hispanic?
I haven’t done any of the math here, but what if everyone is precisely represented as they should be based on the census numbers?
The exception would be that since you knew about it, it seems that it was knowable that these managers were doing that. And if they were allowed to continue, that does come down to the organization. But your general point is still sound.
If it is not going away, that implies pretty strongly that it is still here. So why all the denial that racism continues to play a part in society?
Knowable is not provable–and a number of actions, both legislative and judicial, through the 1980s to today, have made it much harder to prove. Texaco only got caught because their management team was taped discussing their actions. The sort of thing that I saw was always done with a nudge and a wink and I could not provide any sort of “evidence” of what I had seen.
My SIL only found out what happened to her document when talking to a floor manager after she had left the company, so it would have been nothing but hearsay. (On the other hand, the fact that none of the managers at her company protested or took actaion against the “understood” policy did, in fact, make it company racism.)
That is exactly what I asked. Do you need the quote again?
I asked -
To which you responded with an unequivocal “No”. There is no way to interpret your answer except that you do not believe that whites have any advantage over blacks in fields like medicine. I.e., racism gives whites no advantage over blacks in fields like medicine.
I realize fully, you are attempting to force me to say that I believe blacks are genetically inferior to whites. I have not said it, and your best efforts at distortion are not successful in making me say it. That’s why I put the qualifiers about “inborn”, above. This is made obvious by your response here -
To which you responded -
In other words, you were trying to force me into making a personal slur, so as to be able to make me appear racist.
Fortunately, your subtlety is exceeded by, well, practically anything one could name, and so I have you backed into a rhetorical corner. Either you can admit that institutional racism does not advantage whites or disadvantage blacks. Or, you can admit that you were wrong.
Or, you can change the subject, begin flailing about wildly and flaming,
the raindog is engaged in a rather silly exercise in denial in which he uses bad logic and analogies so strained they have suffered hernias in order to attempt to establish his position. He has not yet engaged in personal attacks or made outrageous claims for the purpose of getting a rise out of other posters.
No, it’s not exactly what you asked. Exact means exact. You’re playing games in order to evade what I asked you first.
The question first started off about individuals. I asked you whether you think a black kid has an advantage a white kid in sports. All I got was silence from you.
But then, apropos of nothing, you asked me whether a white person has an intellectual advantage over a black person. Unsurprisingly, I told you no. Then I repeated my question to you about blacks and sports. You still didn’t answer the question.
Then you came out with this question about whether whites have an advantage over blacks in fields like medicine. I answered no to that question. Why? I don’t think white and black doctors have a signficantly harder or easier time relative to one another. Once one jumps through all the hoops and barriers to become a doctor, the playing field is pretty even for the most part. There are exceptions, though.
The trick is breaking through all the hoops and barriers. I think whites, as a group, have a easier time at that thanks to the effects of past racism. As the raindog will probably agree.
So while your attempt to play gotcha with me was a ballsy one, it didn’t pan out as hoped. Sorry about that.
I’ve asked you a question, Shodan. A very simple one, at that. If you don’t want to answer it, then fine. Don’t. But I’m not forcing you to do anything.
At this point you’re whining, and I hate to see grown men whine.
