Are White People in Denial?

Great Debates
141

One of the most persecuted ethnic groups in history has been the Jews…Ghettos,Pogroms,Genocide,selective punatitve taxation and even today Neo Nazi nut cases vandalise their graveyards,I dont know if the thing about social exclusion in the U.S.(country clubs etc.)is still true but it appears to me that a good percentage of them are very successful educationally,financially and in showbiz.

In the U.K.Indian asians do above average educationally and in business though until quite recently they were discriminated against(though to be fair its not unusual for them to be very racist themselves,trying getting a job with an Indian firm or marry into an Indian family if your W.Indian,African or White)
Likewise educationally and in business the same holds true for the Hong Kong ethnic Chinese.

So it wont wash when someone who loafed their way through school,left with little or no qualifications then go on to a work history of unpunctuality , unreliability and a lack of self discipline try to pass the old chestnut that their poor economic status is due mostly to their ancestors being slaves .
If the Jews etc.and the rest can do it then so can you.
Before Im accused of partiality Im not Jewish or of any other ethnic group other then mostly Anglo Saxon.

142

[QUOTE=Sumisu_919]
The whites wind up with considerable wealth to transfer to their kids along with better educational opportunites, yada yada yada.
[/QUOTE]

This confirms something I’ve heard too many times to discount, which leads me to believe: somebody stole my considerable wealth. I’m going to close my eyes and when I open them I want the Swiss account numbers for where whoever took it stashed it, along with interest compiled during the years I was working my way through college and driving crappy cars and usually broke. If it’s not there, I’m going to raise some hell and show my lack of color.

143

[QUOTE=Lust4Life]
Before Im accused of partiality Im not Jewish or of any other ethnic group other then mostly Anglo Saxon.
[/QUOTE]
Color me surprised. :smiley:

144

[QUOTE=Little Nemo]
Not at all. Nobody has denied that there are situations where false accusations of racism are made. And nobody has denied that there are situations when genuine racism has occurred. The middle ground where people are disagreeing is in situations where racism might be an explanation for what happened. Some people are too quick to see racism when other explanations are more likely and some people are too quick to see other explanations when racism is the most likely explanation.
[/QUOTE]

There are about 5001 different definitions of ‘racism,’ that range from making any kind of judgment about a person based on his race, to the idea that racism is a power structure, and that only whites (therefore) can be racist, because they have the power.

But if you define ‘racism’ broadly, all people are racist.

Suppose I’m walking down a street at night, and a woman happens to be walking ahead of me. She glances behind her, and I see her quicken her step. She slides her keys into her hand. She’s a little more nervous than she was before she saw me.

Is she sexist?

The fact is that I’m not a rapist. I’m not a mugger. I have no intentions or designs on her at all. I’m just walking down the same sidewalk. If we sat down to coffee, she’d probably realize I’m just a regular guy. She’s making an assumption about me based on my sex, but I don’t hate her for it. I don’t think, “Wow, what a sexist bitch.” Her fears may be exaggerated (or maybe not, depending on the neighborhood), but they’re not irrational.

If you define racism as ever making an assumption about someone, based on race, then we’re all racists, forever. Hell, if Jesse Jackson can’t do it, nobody can.

145

Last week someone knocked down the adress sign in front of my house. My wife called the cops. When the cop came he took a report and said" maybe it is time for you to think about moving. out. They are moving in you know".
Does racism exist. Absolutely. Is it as bad as it used to be. ? It is different.
When my son got whiny about life when he was growing up, I told him being born white, in the US and middle class removes a hell of a lot of problems from your life.

146

[QUOTE=Sumisu_919]

It’s not the whites per se, but the “Structural Racism” that made it possible for them to make the move to the burbs while keeping blacks out. The whites wind up with considerable wealth to transfer to their kids along with better educational opportunites, yada yada yada.
[/quote]

Are you saying that when the whites moved out to the suburbs, that those better schools were already there, in the cornfields, waiting for them?

Or did the whites who moved out to the suburbs build the schools, themselves?

Slavery is, and was, an inhuman and immoral institution. If you believe in the concept of ‘race,’ and in collective racial responsibility, then whites bear a terrible responsibility, and a burden.

But there are several problems with the pc version of racial theory that holds that there was a transfer of wealth from blacks to whites that results in income inequality today.

One is that slavery did not actually help whites. Slavery held the slave states back. If you don’t believe me, look at the economic development of the North and the South, before the Civil War. The other problem is that although there is a difference between black and white income in the US, blacks in the US are still far better off than blacks in Africa.

It’s possible that a difference in income between two groups means that one group stole it from the other one. But it doesn’t automatically or necessarily mean that.

147

[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow]
No, it implies that I was actually there, and can compare it to a number of incidents I’ve had being mistaken for a shop clerk. This interaction was different than most, which I’ve described in depth upthread. The point about being 35 and a person of color was an effort to demonstrate that I’ve experienced enough of these types of interactions to be able to detect a difference. I make no claim that my perception is 100 percent correct, as I’ve said multiple times. If you had been there perhaps you would have observed the same things I observed, perhaps not.
[/QUOTE]
Then I guess we are coming down on the side that says that truth can be arrived at to some degree of reasonable certainty, at least in some cases.

Well and good - this postmodern stuff gets on my nerves.

Regards,
Shodan

148

[QUOTE=pool]
Hippy Hollow, are you an older or younger guy? I am white but people seem to ask me a lot when I’m in a store about things as if I worked there even when I’m wearing clothes that clearly show I do not. I think part of it is my youth and people assuming I work there.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah,Yeah good point but you still havent told me where the dairy department is.

149

Down the last aisle on the right, Duh!

150

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Color me surprised. :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

Yes your right ,I now feel guilty for choosing to be born white ,but on the plus side Ienjoy wearing the jackboots and carrying the riding crop.

Its just that I cant get on with this luxurious life in the suburbs,oh shit !I forgot I live in the city.
Oh yes its absaloute hell.

Quite frankly the excuses are so obviously bollicks and the "its not our fault "brigade are starting to look a little bit silly to everyone but themselves.
You know it ,I know it ,my dead granny knows it.

151

[QUOTE=pool]
Down the last aisle on the right, Duh!
[/QUOTE]

pool, FWIW, I’m 35, and I look pretty much my age.

The milk is actually kept outside the store, in a special cooler across the interstate. You’ll have to cross it to get there.

152

Yeah, I’d say most (or many) white people are actively in denial. It seems as though any time I’m in a conversation with other white people and the topic turns to anything even remotely involving black people-- whatever that means-- someone says something ignorant or general about black people. Same thing about Asians, Latino/as, etc.

153

[QUOTE=miss elizabeth]
Are white people in denial about racism? If this thread is any indication, yes.
[/QUOTE]

Of course, as a "Whitey"if I declare myself to be a racist then I’m a racist,if I say I’m not a racist then I’m in denial but I’m still a racist .

Ergo being White makes me a racist.
But wait! isnt lumping all of the "Whiteys "together as racists a racist statement revealing an underlying anti White people racist mentality?

I hope to god for the sake of the defendant that you never ever do jury service.

154

[QUOTE=e-logic]

We’ve just had the same issue in the UK - large areas of Northern England were flooded, the Govt didn’t react fast enough. The point made was exactly the same - that if it’d been rich London affected we’d have seen a response much more quickly.

However, it wasn’t along racial lines - as most of the commiunities affected were White Brits - it’s distance from seats of power, and economic influence.

[/QUOTE]

Hey ,cmon we’re not going to waste money on Northerners ,we know all about them marrying their sisters ,not using toilet paper and speaking in pidgin English !
And thats just their Members of Parliament.

155

[QUOTE=Lust4Life]
Of course, as a "Whitey"if I declare myself to be a racist then I’m a racist,if I say I’m not a racist then I’m in denial but I’m still a racist .

Ergo being White makes me a racist.
But wait! isnt lumping all of the "Whiteys "together as racists a racist statement revealing an underlying anti White people racist mentality?

I hope to god for the sake of the defendant that you never ever do jury service.
[/QUOTE]

I think you’re responding to the wrong thread.

156

[QUOTE=Lust4Life]
Of course, as a "Whitey"if I declare myself to be a racist then I’m a racist,if I say I’m not a racist then I’m in denial but I’m still a racist .

Ergo being White makes me a racist.
But wait! isnt lumping all of the "Whiteys "together as racists a racist statement revealing an underlying anti White people racist mentality?

I hope to god for the sake of the defendant that you never ever do jury service.
[/QUOTE]

Friend, you’re spot on, but I think you’re only seeing half the picture.

To be righteous, it’s simply not enough to sit in righteous indignation of your fellow whiteys for this nebulous, elusive “institutional racism” they’re responsible for.

No, you also have to feel sympathy for the victims.(ignoring the evidence to the contrary) So, without a whiff of irony or incredulity you need to proclaim [absolutely absurd] comments like miss elizabeth’s: “As a white person I try very hard to recognize that I am privileged to a lifestyle black people will not have in my lifetime.” Now, until you train yourself to feel, you will contimue to suffer with bouts of thinking. That may manifest itself by recognizing that, unless miss elizabeth is Paris Hilton, millions of blacks own homes, work as engineers, doctors, lawyers, artists, athletes, musicians and other professions. Millions others have families and work as tradesmen, union memebers, small business owners etc and have families and live middle class lives. So, you may see comments like that to be condescending and patronizing; that the implication that blacks (apparently all blacks in miss elizabeth’s view) are simply incapable of overcoming any racism they may encounter (of the institutional flavor), and that maybe, just maybe, many blacks would be offended at this comment.

It may be about this time you’re suspecting that 11811 has been in a coma for the last 50 years when you encounter the comment, “I hope that things have improved enough for blacks that they aren’t confronted with racism in every facet of their lives.” (bolding of “every” his/hers)

They are part of a group that is extremely well intentioned. Still, they suffer from [vicarious] white guilt for the sins of their fathers. This requires self-flagellation and the desire to see racism in every trnsaction of any kind. They are natural disciples of people like Jesse Jackson, a poseur and MLK wannabe heir who has found a business model in [the perpetuation of] racism. They team up to visit [vicarious] black pain for the injuries of their fathers.

157

[QUOTE=Sumisu_919]
I think you’re responding to the wrong thread.
[/QUOTE]

Well I went back to the o.p. and reread it ,and well gosh geewilikins ! I interpreted it as, if as a whitey you were in denial about racism still being an issue (Anti Afro American racism obviously,anti white racism doesnt count ,nor should it !all the things that theyve done to ethnic minorities they deserve all they get,the bastards!) then your obviously a racist yourself .
But it seems that you are telling me that Im wrong .
Did the o.p. actually mean that white “folks” in denial are all actually folk singers maybe?or perhaps whiteys in denial are all closet Whist players ?
Im sorry but the plane Im on ,Ican only respond to the actual posting ,my uncanny psychic powers dont seem to be functioning at the moment .
Whoops !sorry yes its all whiteys fault blah,blah,blah,blah

158

[QUOTE=Lust4Life]
Well I went back to the o.p. and reread it ,and well gosh geewilikins ! I interpreted it as, if as a whitey you were in denial about racism still being an issue (Anti Afro American racism obviously,anti white racism doesnt count ,nor should it !all the things that theyve done to ethnic minorities they deserve all they get,the bastards!) then your obviously a racist yourself .
But it seems that you are telling me that Im wrong .
Did the o.p. actually mean that white “folks” in denial are all actually folk singers maybe?or perhaps whiteys in denial are all closet Whist players ?
Im sorry but the plane Im on ,Ican only respond to the actual posting ,my uncanny psychic powers dont seem to be functioning at the moment .
Whoops !sorry yes its all whiteys fault blah,blah,blah,blah
[/QUOTE]
Give back some of that straw! You appear to have created a shortage of livestock bedding throughout Kent and have created a straw man tall enough to interfere with the traffic patterns for Heathrow and Gatwick.

The OP asked a question regarding a specific even and specific reactions to it. I have actually responded in the negative to a particlular aspect of the question, so I am hardly defending the entire premise.

However, you have provided nothing but unqualified stereotypes, accusations of statements that are not present in the OP, and generally behaved in the manner of a person proving the affirmative of the question asked.

If all you can do is post banal stereotypes and and baseless denials, perhaps you ought to wander over to the Pit to express how you truly feel rather than cluttering up an actual discussion.

159

Raindog, have you ever met a black person in real life? I’m amazed anyone could think many black people would be offended by a white person acknowledging that racism still exists.

And of course many black people are professionals - but what does that have to do with anything? The issue is how much racism there is in this country and nobody’s claimed that it was 100%. By that standard, there was no racism in 1850 - there were some black people back then who weren’t slaves so that proves that slavery was not a racial issue.

160

[QUOTE=Little Nemo]
Raindog, have you ever met a black person in real life? I’m amazed anyone could think many black people would be offended by a white person acknowledging that racism still exists.
[/quote]

Well, other than my ex-wife and all her family, my kids (which I guess are only half black) and virtually every one on my neighbors that I’ve actually met, (I’m the only white person on my street at the moment), the overwhelming amount of the people in the congregation where I worship (which is 90% AA), a significant amount of my closest personal friends, 2 of my employees, one SIL and one BIL, various co-workers over the years, friends from growing up, girls I dated over the years, people from the old neighborhood, people that I meet regularly through my church (I went to a picnic yesterday and there were AAs there), people who I interact with through my work, and some of my customers, no, no I can’t say I’ve ever met a black person.

Should that matter?

You’re right. But comments like miss elizabeth’s and 11811 suggest that it is, if not 100%, a significant portion of the population. I’m saying it is not.

That’s not to say that everyone is basking in the warm light of enlightenment. We’re talking about behavior.

The SDMB denizens want to believe that there is a racist bogeymen around every corner, and I’m saying that is simply not true.