Are White People in Denial?

[Shodan]

@the raindog

Well, other than my ex-wife and all her family, my kids (which I guess are only half black) and virtually every one on my neighbors that I’ve actually met, (I’m the only white person on my street at the moment), the overwhelming amount of the people in the congregation where I worship (which is 90% AA), a significant amount of my closest personal friends, 2 of my employees, one SIL and one BIL, various co-workers over the years, friends from growing up, girls I dated over the years, people from the old neighborhood, people that I meet regularly through my church (I went to a picnic yesterday and there were AAs there), people who I interact with through my work, and some of my customers, no, no I can’t say I’ve ever met a black person.

Love-fifteen, the raindog.

Regards,
Shodan

[Little_Nemo]

Well, raindog, based on what you’ve posted, I’m upgrading your beliefs from “amazing” to “mind bogglingly unbelievable”. I know a lot of black people as well and I’ve never heard any of them express any opinions like the ones you claim many of them have.

[Sumisu_919]

@the raindog

So, you may see comments like that to be condescending and patronizing; that the implication that blacks (apparently all blacks in miss elizabeth’s view) are simply incapable of overcoming any racism they may encounter (of the institutional flavor), and that maybe, just maybe, many blacks would be offended at this comment.

Why does one group need to just overcome something that’s not being done to another group? Why can’t the something just stop? Moreover, why can’t the group that’s responsible for it make a serious effort at ending it? You know, zero tolerance for racism, major ad campaigns, etc.

It may be about this time you’re suspecting that 11811 has been in a coma for the last 50 years when you encounter the comment, “I hope that things have improved enough for blacks that they aren’t confronted with racism in every facet of their lives.” (bolding of “every” his/hers)

I think YOU are in a coma or should I say denial and I also challenge your assertion that you know black people, was married to one, etc, etc. I think you’re taking advantage of your anominity here because your ideas seem to be way out of step with the circles you say you run in.

They are part of a group that is extremely well intentioned. Still, they suffer from [vicarious] white guilt for the sins of their fathers. This requires self-flagellation and the desire to see racism in every trnsaction of any kind. They are natural disciples of people like Jesse Jackson, a poseur and MLK wannabe heir who has found a business model in [the perpetuation of] racism. They team up to visit [vicarious] black pain for the injuries of their fathers.

What group are you a part of?

[tomndebb]

@Sumisu_919

I think YOU are in a coma or should I say denial and I also challenge your assertion that you know black people, was married to one, etc, etc. I think you’re taking advantage of your anominity here because your ideas seem to be way out of step with the circles you say you run in.

What group are you a part of?

I have no idea what sort of relationship the raindog has with any persons whose ancestors may have been imported from Africa 200 years ago. More to the point, neither do you. Barring evidence to the contrary, I suggest you simply accept his word regarding who he knows. This is a blind alley to pursue in this discussion. As you are the one who raised the topic, I suggest you back off on pursuing it. The black community is unlikely to be any more monolithic in thought than the white community and challenging one overgeneralization with another has to be based on an unsupportable assumption. (See Thomas Sowell, for example.)

Far more pertinent to the discussion is whether several of the posters (on both sides of the issue) in this thread have been confusing generalizations with universal declarations. I would suggest that addressing specific issues with evidence will be a more productive line of discussion.

[you_with_the_face]

There’s a certain “dost protest too much” quality to some of these posts (and the thread that spun-off this one) that lend support to the OP’s premise.

I can understand that some people don’t pick up on racism because they are not attuned to it for whatever X,Y, or Z reason. I can also understand that some people think that what is called racism today is actually classism or something else in disguise. I can also see how someone could think modern racism is not all that important, at the level that they think it exists.

But what I don’t understand is people taking the position that modern-day racism is a myth actively foisted on society by dark and unethical forces, to burden the white man with undeserved pain and suffering all in the hopes of accomplishing something that has yet to be explained. This is an extraordinary claim that needs to be backed up with some evidence.

[Sumisu_919]

@tomndebb

I have no idea what sort of relationship the raindog has with any persons whose ancestors may have been imported from Africa 200 years ago. More to the point, neither do you. Barring evidence to the contrary, I suggest you simply accept his word regarding who he knows. This is a blind alley to pursue in this discussion. As you are the one who raised the topic, I suggest you back off on pursuing it. The black community is unlikely to be any more monolithic in thought than the white community and challenging one overgeneralization with another has to be based on an unsupportable assumption. (See Thomas Sowell, for example.)

There’s nothing wrong with challenging what a person posts here, or is there? His post sounds like BS to me.

Far more pertinent to the discussion is whether several of the posters (on both sides of the issue) in this thread have been confusing generalizations with universal declarations. I would suggest that addressing specific issues with evidence will be a more productive line of discussion.

I agree.

[tomndebb]

@Sumisu_919

There’s nothing wrong with challenging what a person posts here, or is there? His post sounds like BS to me.

Challenge away.
However, his position is not dependent on his actual environment and pursuing that line of thought will not aid or harm his argument, (since you will never know the accuracy of his description of his environment). Given that his portrayal of his environment was a direct response to a question from you that was fairly irrelevant to the actual discussion, I just see it as a dead end.

My observations are those of a poster, not a Moderator.

[raindog]

@Sumisu_919

Why does one group need to just overcome something that’s not being done to another group?

Beats me. And while I don’t think get it quite yet, a light just came on in the furthest reaches of your mind. Move toward it, please.

Why can’t the something just stop? Moreover, why can’t the group that’s responsible for it make a serious effort at ending it? You know, zero tolerance for racism, major ad campaigns, etc.

What should stop? Who are they? What are they doing?

You know, the details.

I think YOU are in a coma or should I say denial and I also challenge your assertion that you know black people, was married to one, etc, etc. I think you’re taking advantage of your anominity here because your ideas seem to be way out of step with the circles you say you run in.

Thank you for this post!

And you know the people in the circles I run in? It’s not often I get people to feed me material like this, but I’m always delighted when they do. I thought I heard Tom groan when I read this. The exact type of generalization you just made----assuming “the circle[s] you * run in” believe a certain way (and subsequently feel, believe etc) is a form of prejudice; the exact type of prejudice that Tom feels needs to stop. Now Tom pointed out just one guy, Thomas Sowell, who is but one of millions of AAs who, in my experience, would find much of this thread patronizing and condescending. (while well intentioned)

What group are you a part of?

Well, I’m part of several groups I guess… In this context I don’t think I belong to a “group” as much as a silent majority; a silent majority who go about their day to day lives unemcumbered with guilt for crimes they didn’t commit, or pain for injuries they didn’t suffer.

[raindog]

@Sumisu_919

I think YOU are in a coma or should I say denial and I also challenge your assertion that you know black people, was married to one, etc, etc. I think you’re taking advantage of your anominity here because your ideas seem to be way out of step with the circles you say you run in.

For the record:
I agree the internet allows people to embellish, exaggerate, and even fabricate things.

As far as Little Nemo’s question was/is concerned, I didn’t see the relevance to whether I know any AAs personally. (although I was asked whether I had even met any)

In the larger context, I think it is entirely relevant and a fair question. I had/have a distinct impression that many of the posters have little intimate contact with AAs. In particular, it seemed that both miss elizabeth and 11811 have little intimate friendships with AAs. [Assuming I’m right, ] Of course, that doesn’t mean their views would change. It’s possible that their [patronizing] views might be fortified.

At any rate, if anyone cares enough to find out, they are free to PM or email me. I would be pleased to talk live, and I’m sure we could establish a method to see if my answer to Little Nemo is in fact true or not. I assume that if Sumisu_919 accepts this offer, he/she would promptly post an apology for essentially calling me a liar.

[raindog]

@you with the face

There’s a certain “dost protest too much” quality to some of these posts (and the thread that spun-off this one) that lend support to the OP’s premise. I can understand that some people don’t pick up on racism because they are not attuned to it for whatever X,Y, or Z reason.

Maybe they don’t pick up on it because in many of the instances it is alleged to exist,* it doesn’t, or can’t be known.*

I can also understand that some people think that what is called racism today is actually classism or something else in disguise. I can also see how someone could think modern racism is not all that important, at the level that they think it exists.

Exactly. At the level it exists.

I also don’t believe that the guy who overcooked my eggs this morning was a Nazi, even though I’m sure they exist. (and even then, I concede he may be a Nazi. But I have no compelling evidence that shows that’s why he overcooked those eggs.)

And so it is not as if I believe that racism, at any level, is unimportant. Racism is a blight on society and needs to be countered at every level. Racism, to the extent it exists, is very important.

But what I don’t understand is people taking the position that modern-day racism is a myth actively foisted on society by dark and unethical forces, to burden the white man with undeserved pain and suffering all in the hopes of accomplishing something that has yet to be explained. This is an extraordinary claim that needs to be backed up with some evidence.

What evidence do you need?

How about your post from April, 2006?

**you with the face:***Which means that my generation, Generation X, is the first generation of black people to actually be born free in this country. We’re the first generation to live our entire lives without having to see a “Colored Only” sign. We’re the first blacks in American History to be able to apply for a job, housing, or higher education with some type of legal protection against discrimination. We’re the first generation of blacks who do not remember the time when the mere act of voting or holding a white woman’s hand was a dangerous, life-threatening act. We’re the first generation of blacks to be able to dream of becoming whatever we want to be without first worrying about white people. We’re the first generation to be able to hope for fairness in the justice system, even though we know we don’t always get it.

This probably won’t strike you as being significant because freedom is something that a lot of whites take for granted, but hardly a day goes by that I don’t sit and marvel about this. You scoff at 50 years, as is your right to do, but when I realize my parents were in their late teens when those Civil Rights protesters were hosed down in the street–by the police, mind you–there is no way I could have your blase appreciation for history. Seeing the white people yelling and throwing rocks at the little black girl who dared to go to “their” school, watching the white people turn into rabid animals at the sight of the blacks who dared to sit at “their” lunch counters, listening to the diatribes of Strom Thurmond and Wallace on the radio and TV. Seeing Martin Luther King villified in the news for having the audacity to say that blacks deserved to be treated like human beings. My parents were alive and fully cognizant during those days. And if they were alive, plenty of others were alive. The history is embedded into us…"…snip… (See post #157 * in this thread for the complete discussion)

You have every right to marvel at the lives, sacrifices and accomplishments of blacks in the civil rights era. It is a testimony of the human spirit and the strength of a people.

But again and again I see posts of yours that indicate that it is the injuries of your fathers—not yours—that victimize you. You are being victimized in the past while living in the present. I don’t believe you honor their sacrifices by walking around with the injuries of the past on your sleeve like a badge of honor.

And so it is clear to me that it is indeed “embedded” into you. But when pressed to show me concrete examples of the type of racism that prevails today you give me the [rich and poignant] history of your parents.

They were willing to be victims so you wouldn’t have to be oppressed by racism. You’re not dishonoring them by living the life they imagined.

[raindog]

@Little Nemo

Well, raindog, based on what you’ve posted, I’m upgrading your beliefs from “amazing” to “mind bogglingly unbelievable”. I know a lot of black people as well and I’ve never heard any of them express any opinions like the ones you claim many of them have.

Well, How many do you know?

[raindog]

@Little Nemo

…snip… I’m amazed anyone could think many black people would be offended by a white person acknowledging that racism still exists.

I have never said that racism doesn’t exist.

The SDMB is full of them.

[Little_Nemo]

How many do you know?

Well, I’ve never been married or had children and I’m not a church-goer. But I have numerous black friends, numerous black coworkers, and numerous black neighbours. Plus I’ve heard and read many things from black people I’ve never met, including some of the posters in this thread. And I haven’t found the views you consider to be common among most black people to be the views I’ve encountered.

[Hippy_Hollow]

Funnily enough, the raindog, you’ve made two insinuations that posters on the SDMB are racist, and you’ve yet to name them, even though you were asked twice to do so.

I would like you to inform us about racism. You say it exists, and insinuate it’s people of color who are the perpetrators. So give us a few examples, would you, of what you find to be racism? How is it measured, exactly?

Regarding if the raindog has Black friends, acquaintances, etc., my response is a big meh. Having, or not having people of color in your social circle doesn’t inoculate one from racist thought or intent. There’s a reason why “some of my best friends are Black!” is an oft-mocked meme when people are confronted with their own racism. (Note that I am not saying that the raindog is racist.)

[wonky]

@Hippy Hollow

Funnily enough, the raindog, you’ve made two insinuations that posters on the SDMB are racist, and you’ve yet to name them, even though you were asked twice to do so.

Was it just twice?

In any case, I don’t remember if I asked before, but I’m definitely asking now.

[raindog]

@Little Nemo

Well, I’ve never been married or had children and I’m not a church-goer. But I have numerous black friends, numerous black coworkers, and numerous black neighbours. Plus I’ve heard and read many things from black people I’ve never met, including some of the posters in this thread. And I haven’t found the views you consider to be common among most black people to be the views I’ve encountered.

Apparently you missed the " " in my post…

[dart]

So wait, is this a contest about who knows the most black people? What if a black person enters? Can they count their own family members?

Anyone who is literate will understand that black people are generally born at a socioeconomic disadvantage in this country when compared to white people. Where did that come from? Laziness? Oh, wait, no, slavery.

[raindog]

@dart

So wait, is this a contest about who knows the most black people? What if a black person enters? Can they count their own family members?

Anyone who is literate will understand that black people are generally born at a socioeconomic disadvantage in this country when compared to white people. Where did that come from? Laziness? Oh, wait, no, slavery.

Where the heck have you been?!

In another tab I’ve got a 1000 word post I’ve been pecking on for an hour and a half and here you show up and succinctly make my point in 50.

That’s right folks. The problem is slavery.

monstro, forget about that job interview. It’s gonna be a while.

[Hippy_Hollow]

Jeez, the raindog, if you’re not going to answer the question asked to you four times now, why don’t you just say so?

Since you won’t answer that question, I’ve got a couple of new ones I’d like to ask you to respond to.

Are you at all familiar with the term “intergenerational transfer?”

Did you attend college? If so, what was the demographic breakdown of the student body at your school? Among your African-American peers, how many of them were first-generation college students? How did that number compare to your White peers?

[raindog]

@Hippy Hollow

Jeez, the raindog, if you’re not going to answer the question asked to you four times now, why don’t you just say so?

Since you won’t answer that question, I’ve got a couple of new ones I’d like to ask you to respond to.

Are you at all familiar with the term “intergenerational transfer?”

Did you attend college? If so, what was the demographic breakdown of the student body at your school? Among your African-American peers, how many of them were first-generation college students? How did that number compare to your White peers?

Well Jeez Hippy Hollow! Do I seem like the shy type?

The fact is, my computer has some WinRot of some sort, and I had a post that addressed your question—it had to be 1000 words or more. Alas, the “Snopes” site (which I was citing) crashed my browser. All was lost.

I will post some tomorrow. I will also think about your questions,and although worthy of discussion, aren’t just a hijack but irrelevant to the topic at hand.