The question then becomes, why turn on each other instead of working together to resolve each other’s frustrations?
I think people don’t know how.
That says a lot right there. It’s just part of life that people sometimes get in bad moods and take it out on their partners. I think the key is to let them process their emotions while not putting up with bad behavior. Responding in kind is childish and just makes things worse.
External? Or internal?
Or both?
To answer the OP, Yes, and I don’t know why.
I meant external to the relationship. Like they are pissed about work or whatever.
Because they happen to be the person there at the time.
Ah. Yes, agreed. Though my personal belief is that the real issue is internal to the person.
I had an ‘aha’ conversation yesterday with dad. Sometimes things are staring you right in the face, but you push things aside and ignore a lot of behaviors. What’s the point in getting worked up or upset?
I’m talking about my mom and sister. My sister is 10 years older than me, and has never married, never had kids. She had a long term boyfriend who was a jackass. For example, he once made a pass at me on a New Year’s Eve when I was about 19 or so. Ew. I had known him since I was about nine and saw him as another brother. Having a ‘brother’ lay a sloppy kiss on you is disgusting. I never told her that and never will (what’s the point?) so let’s let that be our secret, OK?
At any rate, he broke up with her after dating for 12 years and, of course, found someone new and got married almost immediately. Meanwhile, there she was in her early 30’s. She met another guy and he eventually proposed, but he turned out to be a control freak so the wedding was called off. She dated another guy for a short time, but that definitely didn’t go well. He was sometimes critical of her and at the reception after my husband and I got married, he got drunk and hit on a lot of the women there, including our teenaged cousin and me, the bride.
My sister has always been very close to mom. I’ve always felt like the third wheel. I can’t recall a time when I haven’t felt like the spare person, just kind of there. I know they both love me, but mom and sis are constantly together. They’re best friends. The first (and last) time we went on a vacation together, I could see the warning signs that mom usually tried to brush away when I brought it up. One day I was walking behind sis and affectionately played with her hair. She spun around and said “Don’t touch me! Why are you even here? We don’t want you to be here, and you need to GET AWAY FROM US.”
Holy shit. I was pregnant with my youngest at the time, and I remember covering my belly instinctively, protectively. She had finally become unhinged and it was out there for the first time for mom to see. I had always known but it was never articulated quite like that before. I turned around and left the theme park, spending the rest of the afternoon hanging around by the hotel pool. We had adjoining rooms; mom and sis shared one (of course) and I had my own. I locked the door connecting the two rooms that night because I was afraid of her. She would probably never hurt me, but she just seemed to have come unglued or something.
Later when mom and I had a chance to talk, I told her all that I had been feeling for years and she said she would make sure that it didn’t happen anymore. That was 15 years ago, and things are much the same. My sister apologized the next day for our ‘little misunderstanding’ and the subject has been buried, never to be brought up again. It just makes all of us too uncomfortable.
Meanwhile, I got married, had some kids, live the pleasant suburban life that I had always envisioned. Nice neighborhood, etc. When we get together with my parents, it’s always taken for granted that my sister will come, too. I have to mention that when the kids were little, my husband couldn’t stand her. She had a tendency to wander off with our kids and not come back for hours. We went to a beach once, and she kept all the rest of us waiting for a couple of hours while she took our daughter to a nearby carnival. At our house, she would tell tham that of course they could have more cookies or no, they didn’t have to turn the video games off. Um, who are their parents again? Luckily the kids got old enough to know better and that problem ended. She still does that, but the kids ignore her for the most part. for example, my husband told our son ‘No video games today’ and a couple of hours later she told hime he could play videos if he wanted to. He didn’t say anything and it was a non-issue. She is very childlike in a lot of ways, and at this point both of my kids are older than her in many aspects emotionally.
I’m always hearing about how much fun they have going to different events, festivals, farmer’s markets, the casino… you name it. I finally said something again to both of them a couple of months ago. I wanted to know if there is something that I’m doing or saying that is irritating. We all have aggrivating traits, and I’m worried that I’m doing something that I’m not aware of that makes me not be fun to be with. We may as well get it out into the open, right? They both very sincerely said that wasn’t the case at all, and when they got together it was spur of the moment.
OK, fair enough.
Before the Memorial weekend I talked to both of them and said if they were going up north, I wanted to go too. We went and had a great time. I did the same thing 4th of July. We went for a long weekend and had a great time. I felt twinges of the ‘third wheel’ uncertainty, and couldn’t help but think that I wouldn’t be there at all if I hadn’t, quite frankly, invited myself. I didn’t say anything for this Labor day weekend to see what happened.
Can anyone guess where my mom and sister are? Can you guess where I am? To make things worse, I called Thursday night to talk to dad (he had called me) and mom answered the phone. She didn’t say one word about going up north at all. I had no idea until dad came over yesterday and I asked if mom was at work. He said “No, honey. She’s up north with your sister.” Well. My reaction wasn’t good. If you knew me, you would know that I’m usually soft spoken, quiet, even tempered. I was none of those things yesterday. I told dad how I felt, and he did his best to defend mom. He said that she meant to call me and that she really was thinking of me, and now that he thinks about it, she didn’t want to jeapordize my health (I had respiratory problems a couple of weeks ago) and blah blah blah.
Good try, dad. He also gave me the same old song and dance I’ve heard for YEARS about how I have a husband and kids and she is all alone in the world and my mom is all she has.
I have been more angry, lonely, and just generally feel more unlovable that I can ever remember feeling. Thanks, mom and sis. If the writing on the wall was any bolder, it would be bigger than the Hollywood sign. I get that you obviously don’t want me with you. I can see now that all of that about ‘spur of the moment’ and ‘we didn’t think you would be interested’ was bullshit. They are fine with the status quo and see no reason to do anything differently.
No wonder I feel as if I don’t have much to offer. It’s easier to just not try at all than it is to try and be hurt, over and over again.
I’m sorry to hear all this, purple.
I am not a psychologist etc. but for what it’s worth…
I don’t have children, but I’m sure that most parents favor one over the other. The difference may be negligible in many cases but people do have preferences about virtually everything. If that happens, a good parent ought to conceal it. And, if I have $2M and you have $1M, I’m “richer” than you but that doesn’t make you poor…if your sister is “richer” than you in your mother’s love, that doesn’t mean you should be “poor.”
I’m a big believer that evolution sets us up for life. It’s no mystery why we bond to our mothers when we’re babies—we depend on them for our survival. And humans spend such a long time maturing and getting ready for life: we’re not turtles laying eggs on the beach and bailing. What may have begun as an evolutionary need is followed by many years of interaction that can enable us or cripple us or something in-between. I think that’s especially true of the relationship to the same-sex parent, whom we model on as our sexual identities and roles develop.
I’ve followed some of your threads and found you to be a reasonable, intelligent person who is probably a good friend to have. It’s tragic that you feel this way, but that’s on her, not you.
You have children, plural: do you blatantly prefer one over the other? I highly doubt that, and I suspect you’d be ashamed of yourself as a parent if you did. That’s what your mother needs to feel. IMO, not that it will happen, but your father needs to shut up, not defend the indefensible. And since that isn’t going to happen, I suggest you never mention it to him again.
As for you, I think you need to let them go. The evolutionary need is definitely passed. The formative years, for better or worse, are behind you. Some people your age have already lost a parent or both. Although I know it isn’t your first choice, it can be done.
I was talking to my sister one night—we never had the relationship with our father that we would have liked, and now he’s gone. I said, “You figured that if he just lived a little longer, maybe you would have turned the corner and had that big conversation that resolved everything, right?” She said, “Yeah.” I said, “I gave up on that conversation a long time ago.”
I’m not saying it couldn’t have happened. He could have been hit by lightning or whacked with a 2x4 or whatever, but absent that nothing would change, inertia being what it is. It sounds like you’ve made some genuine attempts, but if they won’t meet you halfway that’s that. It’s their loss.
Probably the most important factor in the trajectory of your life—who your parents are—is total luck. Hey, if you bought a car and it turned out to be a lemon, you might get another one. I wonder if you couldn’t find a substitute mother. I remember last year, a 65ish female co-worker retired and a lot of the younger women there were quite emotional about it. More than one said, “She’s been like a mom to me.” I later thought, ‘It was ideal…the younger ones had someone who respected them and cherished them as peers, but also gave them wisdom without judging them like parents often do. And of course she’s experienced, glad to share and guide them. I don’t doubt she knew that they loved her to pieces. It was symbiotic.’
Lobotomy, you have some good points - but then, you usually do. It definitely won’t get me anywhere to try and talk this over with dad. His first priority will always be to defend my mom, and that’s that. I do know that he had no idea that I have felt this way.
My mom is a very caring individual, and I love her. However, she has a huge blind spot when it comes to this issue (obviously). As it is very clear that the direct approach didn’t get me anywhere, it doesn’t make any sense to bring it up again. Isn’t there a quote about the definition of insanity being to do the same things over and over again and expecting different results?
I’d rather avoid that, thanks anyhow.
So now what? I know I need to distance myself from the situation, because I’m tired of hearing about good times that I’m not invited to. However, this is my family and life is short. Do I really want to distance myself from mom, when I don’t know how much time I’ll have with her?
I think I want to spend some time one on one with her, so we can make our own memories together. Just because she and my sister are attached at the hip doesn’t mean it always has to be that way. I know I’m going to hear about how sis feels so left out and why didn’t I ask her too, which is what has happened it the past.
Tough shit. That’s just childish and I’m done feeling guilty.
Whew! I feel better now. We’ll see how this goes…
Like I said, with my dad we could have had 100 more years together and still be where we were. It’s up to the parent (or anybody else, for that matter) to meet you halfway.
There’s no need for a dramatic scene where you “write her out” etc. You will of course entertain any offers she may make. But yeah, whatever your routine (calling her, stopping by her place, etc.) I’d dial it back to half. If she asks why, be vague. You’ve been busy or something.
You can also make your future plans without including her or your sister. Like if there’s a family birthday maybe you don’t invite either one. If she wants to know why, be vague. There are multiple ways of communicating but the two most common are speaking and doing. I think she’s ignoring your words and luckily actions speak louder than words. To get what you want, if it’s even possible, that’s the kind of hardball you need to play IMO.
OK, worst case scenario, the NEXT NIGHT she has a heart attack and you’re at the hospital, saying goodbye. “I always felt bad that we didn’t spend more time together, purple…” she whispers.
Whose fault would that be?! And do you really think if she doesn’t have a heart attack that she’s going to have that epiphany any time soon? I can even believe she would recover and get back to normal, then possibly resume everything as it was. She just dumped you this weekend. I’m sorry, really I am, but the writing is on the wall, right now. She isn’t going to take a hint and if you’re only going to use more words, nothing will change.
Well, it will probably take a while before either one of them even notices, but I’ll give it a try and see how it goes.
I hope you’re wrong about them not noticing. But if you’re not, it’s proof that they’re off in their own little world and you’re wasting your time trying to persuade them. IMO that sucks in the short run, but you’re better off knowing it in the long run. Meanwhile, it gives you a break from hearing what you don’t want to hear. If while talking to them they bring it up, I’d change the subject and/or “remember” that something you need to do that “forces” you to cut the chat short.
I really feel this is key. A huge turning point in my relationship with Sr.Olives is when we learned how to see things not as your problem, not as my problem, but as our problem. We were dealing with a particularly insidious issue, a personal problem of mine that was not actually my fault but still affected my behavior, and from my perspective I was dealing with it and its impact on our relationship all by myself. The moment we began to see it as something we faced together, and acknowledge that it affected both of us, we knew we had stumbled upon something great. Now when one or both of us is under stress, and we start to snipe, we remind one another, ‘‘Let’s be allies.’’ (At which point I’ll say, ‘‘You be France, I’ll be Great Britian’’ or if I’m feeling especially nerdy, ‘‘You be Klingon, I’ll be Federation.’’)
Ah, this whole thing is very sad. The point you have to reach, and I believe you are reaching it, is acceptance of who your family is, for better or for worse. I have a very dysfunctional family and my mother is at the center of that dysfunction. I don’t mean she’s kinda bitchy, I mean she has a long history of losing her shit and breaking windows, driving cars into buildings, and doing emotionally brutal and vindictive things to people she feels have slighted her. As a kid, I felt like her prisoner who she could torture at her leisure. She was once absolutely effing terrifying, but now she is mostly harmless, but deeply confused and in many ways still like a child. Now she calls me up regularly asking me for advice on how to be happy and fulfilled, because she doesn’t know how to do it on her own. She has been married and divorced four times and still can’t figure out what a healthy relationship looks like. The reason, you see, that she couldn’t give love, is because she never got any. I could spend the rest of my life resenting her for how she treated me but the simple matter of fact is that she’s mentally ill and the best of her intentions could not make her well.
It took me a long time, and sometimes it feels like an ongoing process, but eventually I had to learn to accept that whatever I felt I needed from her, I wasn’t going to get it.
I’ve come to a point in my relationship with my Mom where she has a vague idea that the way she treated me (and others) in the past was wrong, and she doesn’t treat me that way anymore, though she will never truly comprehend the magnitude of her actions and how they affected me. I just realized at some point that I was either going to have to take her or leave her. Because I’ve always loved her and always will, I chose to take her, and I’m glad for the relationship we have, because it is not based on a sense of need for her love. I will not tolerate abuse from her any longer, and she knows that. I cherish what we have
even if it’s not the stereotypical mommy-daughter bond.
I know your situation is different, but you’re essentially being challenged with the same thing: accepting something about your family that hurts you. It’s especially hard when other family members make excuses or refuse to see the damage being done, so that means you have to accept their less-than-ideal reaction as well. What it took for me was proving to myself I could live without their love–not saying that will be your solution, but once I found a way to be happy on my own, only then could I welcome them back into my life with clearly inscribed boundaries. I’m not saying you have to get all Drama Queen about it, but if you give yourself some space from them you will find perhaps a new way of relating to yourself and understand more keenly that you are fully capable of meeting the emotional needs you heretofore believed you could obtain only from your Mom and Sister.
Good post, olives. OP, I think you have to accept that parents can’t give you something they don’t have. By that I mean that if her parents heavily favored one, that will seem “normal” to her. Or if she were an only child, that issue never came up for review. I don’t think my mom was ever taught any emotional boundaries, for instance, so it’s no wonder she trespasses so regularly into my space and then is bewildered why it would piss me off.
As parents age, we reverse our roles. If your kid were screaming at Wal Mart, begging for a toy, you wouldn’t dare give in because you’d be fighting that battle ad nauseum for years to come. You don’t refuse just to be mean or watch them suffer or get your kicks from abusing your power etc.; you do it because you’re avoiding a path that could make them grow up to think they’re entitled to everything and anything.
So it is here. God/Og knows you’d like a different relationship with her. Absent that, you don’t want to walk away completely, which I understand. That still leaves the negotiation of terms and you can vote with your feet. Take the relationship when the terms that serve your needs and leave the rest.
You’re absolutely right. This is something that has just always been, and I’m not sure why it took me until now to realize the reality of the situation. I guess I just didn’t want to, and pushed it away for a long time. In a way it’s an incredible relief to confront my feelings head on instead of ignoring what I’ve been feeling for all of these years. I’ve had mom on a pedestal for so long that I wasn’t thinking about the fact that what she is doing is wrong. A lot of the things that she does is wrong.
She is holding a grudge against dad for a lot of things that happened when we kids were still teenagers. I remember asking her when I was 19 “If you hate dad so much, why don’t you just divorce him?” I’m the youngest and it isn’t like she had to deal with little kids anymore. She replied that he would probably remarry and she would be alone, and besides, there was all of that money to consider. OK then, it’s your marriage and your life. The problem is, she is very passive-aggressive with dad. She and my sister do pretty much everything together, and dad has got to feel about 10,000 more times excluded than I ever will. He’s not up north this weekend either. He likes to take life slow and she is much more active. He has arthritis, the beginning phases of dementia, and a grab bag of other issues.
I remember memorial weekend, the first weekend I invited myself along. Dad showed up unexpectedly Saturday morning, and I was the only one glad to see him. Mom was… well, she was downright rude. It was really obvoius that she didn’t want him there. He left abruptly early the next morning.
My sister is always telling me everything that mom and dad say and do, to the point of every minute detail. It’s as if she wishes dad would just go away or something. She’s too deeply involved in their lives to have any perspective, and is like a mini-mom. It’s pretty messed up, the more I think of it.
Yeesh. I need to get away from this situation for a while so that I can gain some real perspective.
I think people expect too much from their parents. They are just these two old people who happened to raise you. They probably aren’t any smarter, wiser or more together than you are. Be thankful that they at least raised you to the point where now you are a functioning self-sufficient adult. Once that happens you’re pretty much on your own, so deal.
Functioning is the issue, isn’t it? It sounds like she’s been trying to deal for some time. And if everybody could just deal effectively, she wouldn’t post it. Lots of psychologists would be out of business.
A lot of people probably try to buck up and bite the bullet. Some lose a parent and all chance to make peace with the issues is gone forever. Either way they resign themselves to “That’s how it is.” However, acceptance is a much better goal than simple resignation IMO. The healing is better and faster if the person can understand why.
purple, I flinched when you wrote about her “dismissing” your father. I have known people who are so self-absorbed, narcissistic, egocentric, and whatever else you’d like to add that they objectify almost everyone around them. People are mere tools for their amusement, protection, support, and so on. What, is your father like a TV she switches on when she needs diversion? People like that may grease the wheels from time to time to keep the benefits coming but otherwise, forget it.
In real life, there are men in your father’s position who would just up and dump her. In real life, there are people in your position who would walk away and never look back. I’m not advocating: I’m just saying that people like her can get some rude awakenings along the way.
One of the happiest and saddest things I’ve ever realized is that the way my ex treated me was nothing personal. She’s the sort who objectifies people and it’s all “what’s in it for me?” with her. She had a very few close people whom she might be a good friend to and reciprocate, but I wasn’t in that group. It made me happy to know it wasn’t a personal attack on me, that she was thoughtless and manipulative with most people, so I wasn’t singled out for it. OTOH it made me sad to think she couldn’t overcome that for me, whom she chose to marry. But I realized that it probably had a lot to do with her being abused when she was little, having to make sure she survived at all costs, and so on. I was never going to be admitted into that inner sanctum and I was just spinning my wheels.
I’ll also say that the people she worked with would mostly be shocked to read that she was a user and disagree. But then, they saw her in controlled doses and she was always on her best behavior around them. She once said to me, “When I’m at work, I have to be polite and understanding and cooperative and all that so when I get home, I want to relax and be myself.” Funny priorities, I replied, you’ll move on from that job and we’ll be divorced. She still didn’t think she could lose me.
When you say you’re sure your mother loves you, I think about this weekend when she left you behind and think that love might be worth examining. She loves you under certain circumstances that are convenient for her? It doesn’t sound like it fulfills the usual “unconditional” requirement to me.
People say that blood is thicker than water, and it usually is. I will venture a guess that if your mother weren’t your mother—say she was someone you work with, instead—that you would have figured her out, then blown her off, years ago.
Just my 2 cents, but IMO, you need to stop competing with your sister for mom’s attention. That ship sailed and you weren’t on it. You can try to forge a separate relationship with mumsy (who doesn’t sound all that special, frankly–do you really want to start all this in motion?) or you can move on.
To each his own, but I chose to move on. My eldest sister is a mom clone (except where she’s not) and my mother has favored and cowtowed to her since day one, as has my father. Or as he said himself to me, on the birth of MY first child,“the first one is always the most special in your heart, no matter how many come after.”
I am the fifth child and fourth girl. Thanks, Dad! :rolleyes:
All of this hurt terribly and for many years. But through therapy and the gift of being a parent myself, I found much acceptance of things as they are. Some things still rankle (like when they want to only see the grandkids and not me–it’s not said overtly, but there is almost always a pause and then a “well of course you can come too!” kind of thing), but no matter how bad my life is or how awful my situation, when I wake up in the morning, I am not my sister OR my mother and for this I give many, many thanks.
Good luck to you. I doubt highly that confronting mom or asking her to change will do any good at all–and may backfire on you. But you know these people and the situation much better than I do. I’d keep an eye on sis–I always have on my own ever since she told me that " my dogs are just like your kids". :dubious: :rolleyes:
eleanorigby, it sounds like you understand what it’s like to have an older sister! Sheesh, to be more excited to see your kids instead of their own child - shame on them!
I can’t do anything about the way other people behave, but I can work on my reaction and understanding of the situation. Wish me luck! I can only go uphill from here.
Our evildoing arouses less hate and persecution than our good qualities.
~LaRochefoucauld
http://cuip.uchicago.edu/~ldernbach/msw/xhmaxims.pdf
Here’s my hypothesis.
You have all these things that your sister wishes she had. She’s jealous. You go through life and sure, you appreciate what you have but she’s grinding her teeth constantly about it.
Our envy always lasts longer than the happiness of those we envy. ~LaRochefoucauld
So what does she have that you don’t? The attention and doting of your mother. She throws that in your face, without speaking it as dramatically as she did when you were pregnant of course, but it’s there. It’s a game she never gets satisfaction from.
Envy is thin because it bites but never eats. ~Spanish Proverb
The passive-aggressive game continues because you keep (unwittingly) rewarding it. Every time you’re hurt or upset, she feels like she wins—yeah, you have the loving husband, the kids, the friends at work, yadda: but you can’t have mom!
If you test that hypothesis and concur, here are my proposed solutions.
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As already stated, just don’t call or visit as often and you won’t have it thrown in your face. What was it Mr. Miyagi said? “Best defense against punch, no be there when punch arrive.”
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Do not outwardly react when punch arrives. Sure they cut off your arm, but you weren’t using that arm, anyway.
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Return fire. The goal is to make her sorry she spoke of it, yet you return fire without addressing the issue specifically.
The following can’t work because you’ve already told your father how you feel, and he probably told your mom. But for future reference, suppose you had NOT revealed your feelings to him. The template: load the cannon with all the elements that wound your sister. (which I’ll capitalize to illustrate).
purplesister: Mom and I had such a great time Labor Day weekend!
purplehaze: That’s great sis! PURPLEHUSBAND and I had some FRIENDS over for a cookout. Geez, we were having such a great time that we looked at the clock and holy shit, it was midnight!
purplesister: Uh, well, mom and I went shopping and—
purplehaze (to PURPLEHUSBAND): Did FRIENDLY COWORKER ever come back and get the sunglasses he left behind?
purplesister: —and we found these great—
purplehusband: No, he said to bring them to the PARTY that OTHER FRIENDLY COWORKER invited us to next weekend. And not to forget to bring some margarita mix.
purplehaze: Oh, okay.
purplehusband: You sure work with a great bunch of people, pookie!
purplesister: —bargains on—
purplehaze: That’s funny, baby, they keep telling me what a great HUSBAND I have…and I agree!
Etc. Interrupt freely. Springboard off her comments to say something very positive about your life that drives her nuts. Within reason, exaggerate how much fun you had involving things that she doesn’t have.
I think your mom isn’t guiltless by a long shot but if your sister takes some direct hits, she won’t continue the game and your mom will follow suit.