Argent Towers, a moment of your time.

[Syntropy]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

If you can’t see why that would be inappropriate or why parents would be upset by it, then you’re a fucking moron.

In all fairness to Diosa, it’s difficult to be that self involved and still allow that there may be views other than one’s own which are equally valid.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Marley23

I’m not objecting to you offering your opinion. Anyway: I responded about 20 minutes after the post was reported. I thought a non-mod suggestion would be sufficient. I don’t know when the PMs were made, but obviously it wasn’t.
If you’ve read the thing, I defer to your experience. If you haven’t, I stand by my point: there’s no reason to throw out loaded words like child porn on something that sounds disgusting enough in the first place.

It is an explicitly pornographic novel. Hell, the first words on its Wiki page are:

Hogg is a pornographic novel by Samuel R. Delany

. People calling it porn are not just characterizing it that way capriciously. That is its factual genre.

[Erdosain]

@Marley23

If you’ve read the thing, I defer to your experience. If you haven’t, I stand by my point: there’s no reason to throw out loaded words like child porn on something that sounds disgusting enough in the first place.

According to Wikipedia, Delany himself has endorsed the label of pornography for Hogg (it references Samuel Delany - Shorter Views - Ch 13 “Pornography and Censorship”). Even putting aside the fact that it features an 11-year-old protagonist(!), I don’t think it’s kosher to recommend porn to a minor. Not that I’d expect the mods around here to do a thing about it.

[Zeriel]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

If you can’t see why that would be inappropriate or why parents would be upset by it, then you’re a fucking moron.

I’m tentatively on-board with some form of moderator censure of Argent in the event that Curtis or his parents contacts them regarding this issue, even though I can’t articulate a reason why that would make any logical sense given that in the absence of a parental complaint I don’t really give a crap one way or the other.

[DianaG]

@Argent_Towers

The book is about way, way more than “the repeated sexual abuse” of a boy. The whole thing is an experiment in challenging very strong social taboos. That’s the whole point of transgressive literature.

Like sending inappropriate reading material to children?

My point wasn’t that you were sending it to him because “they’re the same age”, you moron, it was that it is inappropriate reading material for a thirteen year old, and also that your fascination with it is seriously, seriously icky.

[Argent_Towers]

@Zeriel

A) The kid is old enough to read and post on the internet.
B) The kid’s parents ought at this point in his life be taking responsibility for who the kid talks to privately about what.
C) Most relevantly to me–I know scores of people who were reading similarly graphically awful things at that age–hell, I was 12 when I plowed through Mission Earth and its gratuitous depictions of BDSM, rape by any number of methods, and generally rampantly juvenile depictions of sexuality (and worse, all done for the sake of humor rather than literary merit). Hell, at 13, I was coming up with some pretty awful shit on my own. Boys his age are the filthiest motherfuckers on the planet.

Yeah, it’s a book about a kid being forced to be a sex slave. Yes, it’s graphic. So fucking what, it’s on library shelves the world over. And remember Delaney writes a lot of sci-fi with some damn good ideas–I could have with just a bit of different luck stumbled across this instead of the L. Ron Hubbard I was filling my days with at that age.

I’m not going to say it was the SMARTEST thing Argent has ever done, but specifically the bullshit about pedophilia and grooming that I’m seeing in this thread is such overblown hysteria that I can’t take it seriously.

Also: Lighten the hell up about the language rules already. Ed being a toolbox concerning language use has no bearing on the acceptable topics on this board, and saying shit like “we’re prudes about language but OMG PEDOS” makes you look like a goddamn idiot.

Thank you. At least someone here understands the situation and has a cool head. No, it’s not the smartest thing I’ve ever done. It’s definitely one of the stupidest things I’ve done.

@tacoloco

:rolleyes:

It doesn’t matter WHY you recommended it and we don’t need to read the fucking book to know about it. There’s a fine wiki article about it.

The bottom line is you kinda fucked up. Stop defending that. All you’re doing is asking for people to continue to beat you up.

If the same 4 people want to keep beating me up, fine. I’m not going to make anyone love me. I don’t expect that everyone in the world will like me.

[Argent_Towers]

@DianaG

Like sending inappropriate reading material to children?

My point wasn’t that you were sending it to him because “they’re the same age”, you moron, it was that it is inappropriate reading material for a thirteen year old, and also that your fascination with it is seriously, seriously icky.

Yes, I SENT Hogg to him. That’s exactly what happened. I sent inappropriate material to children. I put it in an overnight mailer at the post office and sent it right to his door, and tomorrow he’s going to read it.

Except…no, that’s not what happened. At all. Not remotely.

I didn’t “send” any “material” to anyone.

[Sleeps_With_Butterflies]

@Argent_Towers

Yes, I SENT Hogg to him. That’s exactly what happened. I sent inappropriate material to children. I put it in an overnight mailer at the post office and sent it right to his door, and tomorrow he’s going to read it.

Except…no, that’s not what happened. At all. Not remotely.

I didn’t “send” any “material” to anyone.

Instead of nitpicking the wording, isn’t it just easier to admit that this was a stupid thing to do? You know damned well they’re not accusing you of physically sending him the book, you’re just playing the nitpick game.

[DianaG]

You’re right. You only made a point of contacting him to recommend it, you refrained from actually sending him a copy. You’re a fucking hero.

[Argent_Towers]

@Sleeps_With_Butterflies

Instead of nitpicking the wording, isn’t it just easier to admit that this was a stupid thing to do?

I already did. Post 106:

@Argent Towers

No, it’s not the smartest thing I’ve ever done. It’s definitely one of the stupidest things I’ve done.

I’ll stand by that.

[DianaG]

It was a stupid thing to do. Thing is, it was also a *shitty *thing to do, and I’ve yet to see you acknowledge that.

[Sarahfeena]

Yes, it’s stupid. It’s also wrong, which is the thing I think a lot of us are stuck on.

[Myrnalene]

@Zeriel

Also: Lighten the hell up about the language rules already. Ed being a toolbox concerning language use has no bearing on the acceptable topics on this board, and saying shit like “we’re prudes about language but OMG PEDOS” makes you look like a goddamn idiot.

I said in my first post here that I do not think Argent Towers is an actual pedophile, so you can sit and spin. I believe him when he says what the (stupid) reasons were for his wildly, wildly inappropriate actions.

But you won’t convince me that pointing out the disparity between the ridiculous language restrictions and the lack of ability for the admins to do anything more than throw their hands up in the air when anything with actual potential to damage the board happens makes me look like a fool.

[bucketybuck]

@Myrnalene

Diosa and bucketybuck, are you really so addle-brained that you cannot tell the difference between speaking about something objectionable in public that a child may hear or read, and specifically targeting that child as the recipient of such material?

You will have to forgive me. I do tend to be poster-blind when on the internet. To me, you are all just random names on a page (sorry if this upsets anybody).

I dont know where an individual is from, and I don’t give a fuck.
I dont know what you look like, and I don’t give a damn.
I dont know what age any of you are, and I really couldn’t give a fuck

To be quite frank, the idea that a bunch of nannies are getting knickers twisted because another poster was sent details of “something squicky”, well that offends MY sensibilities.

The poster was 13? Who gives a fuck. Is he old enough to deal with this board or isnt he? He is either old enough to take each and every thing he encounters on this board, or he shouldnt be here. Sure, in the real world I would change my behaviour around kids, but this isn’t the fucking real world, it isn’t even ‘Something Awful’. We arent babysitters.

If I wanted a board that censors itself when the kids are about, or a board that considers certain posters “handle with care” due to age, I would join a maternity board and post about birthing pools and the terrible twos.

On edit, I wonder what Curtis thinks of this attempt to hand-wring Agent T to death. I wonder does HE consider himself a poster, the same as everybody else, or a special case to be condescended to all day long?

[Ichini_Sanshigo]

@tacoloco

A 13 year old doesn’t have enough actual perspective or life experience to have much of a horse to get up on, much less a high one. As an adult, you should know this. And if you don’t then you really have no business discussing much of anything with a 13 year old.

Stop thinking of kids as miniature adults.

See this? This annoys me.

Do any of you people actually remember being 13? When I was 13 I did read Delaney (not Hogg though) recommended by a classmate. Speaking from experience, inquisitive, intelligent, book-hungry 13 year olds are not going to be reading just the Sweet Valley High books anymore. I moved out of the kiddie section long before I reached 13 years of age, and I did encounter fairly graphic stuff. Being pretty smart, I was also able to gauge when something made me uncomfortable and act accordingly (stop reading).

It was probably poor judgment for Argent Towers to recommend that particular book to someone presenting himself as a 13 year-old online. But it’s not like Curtis lacks judgment of his own. Surely he can read the product description and decide whether or not this book is something he wants to read. In the process of reading surely he has the ability to stop if something squicks him out.

Really, I’m just sick of the pedo-hysteria and the inability to have any sort of perspective when it comes to dealing with kids. Thirteen isn’t 10 isn’t 5. For fuck’s sake.

[DianaG]

bucketybuck dear, read for comprehension. I DON’T GIVE A FUCK WHAT KIDS READ ON THE BOARD. I ***do ***think it’s inappropriate to directly contact a minor for the express purpose of recommending a book that any thinking person would consider inappropriate for a minor.

[DiosaBellissima]

@Syntropy

In all fairness to Diosa, it’s difficult to be that self involved and still allow that there may be views other than one’s own which are equally valid.

I’m sorry, did you say something? I couldn’t hear you over the sound of me being so freaking awesome.

[Ichini_Sanshigo]

@bucketybuck

The poster was 13? Who gives a fuck. Is he old enough to deal with this board or isnt he? He is either old enough to take each and every thing he encounters on this board, or he shouldnt be here. Sure, in the real world I would change my behaviour around kids, but this isn’t the fucking real world, it isn’t even ‘Something Awful’. We arent babysitters.

THIS. So much this.

[Zeriel]

@Myrnalene

I said in my first post here that I do not think Argent Towers is an actual pedophile, so you can sit and spin. I believe him when he says what the (stupid) reasons were for his wildly, wildly inappropriate actions.

But you won’t convince me that pointing out the disparity between the ridiculous language restrictions and the lack of ability for the admins to do anything more than throw their hands up in the air when anything with actual potential to damage the board happens makes me look like a fool.

Pointing out the disparity is one thing. There are several people who are pointing it out hysterically and ridiculously.

[Argent_Towers]

@DianaG

You’re right. You only made a point of contacting him to recommend it, you refrained from actually sending him a copy. You’re a fucking hero.

I’m just going to go ahead and paste here the content of the PMs I sent, just so that people will have a good crystal-clear notion of what went on:

(Is it that Hogg novel you talk about?)

It is!

The reason I recommend it is sort of as an endurance test. If you can make it through that book, you’ll realize that words and ideas don’t have nearly as much power as people make them out to. And this is separate from your religion - if your faith is true, then you’ll be able to read the book in a detached way and not be affected by anything in it. (The Bible never says, “don’t read any obscene material.”)

A lot of people in this world will try to shock and jar you and rattle your confidence with words. The best thing you can do in life is to become immune to them.

And later…

See, the issue here is, why do your parents not want you to read that? Think about it for a minute. Do they think that if you read it, you’ll turn from a nice kid into some kind of evil monster? Do they think it will corrupt you somehow? If so, then they are doing a disservice to your own intelligence. Shouldn’t your parents assume that you have the free will to do with information what you want, and that you have the intelligence enough to take in a book without the book altering you?

Since I know you’re religious, look at it this way: the Bible is the one true book, and God is the one true voice. Anything else is powerless. So theoretically you could read or look at anything else, and not be affected by it because you have the intelligence and the free will to prevent certain ideas or words from upsetting you!

So this is what I said to him, and it’s keeping with my own personal philosophy. I think some of you might have in your heads the idea of sinister and sleazy “come-ons” and “grooming” going on in this PRIVATE message, and that I was regaling the lad with stories of child rape. Far from it. I was trying to make an intellectual point to him.

His responses to me were civil and gentleman-like.