[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by bdgr *
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bdgr, in Cartooniverse’s example, the gun is noticeable (either exposed or as a telling bulge). The license, being in the guy’s wallet, is rather less. 
Lessen you think 'toony should wander up to the nice armed gentleman and demand to see his gun license. 
Sua
SuaSponte is exactly right. It’s not my role as a private citizen to place myself in mortal danger by approaching a civilian- or someone dressed as a civilian- who is carrying a gun, and demand I.D. I’ve no rights to demand anything.
I was in the position about 9 years ago to be alone in a pharmacy FILLED with Secret Service Agents. We were awaiting the entrance of President Clinton. My gear had been scanned and sniffed, and I was literally alone in this room with them all- the Press Pool crews were in the Motorcade, still approaching the town. One officer keeps looking at me hard, and eventually walked over and asked to see what I had on my hip. HIS right to do so. I said, " It’s a Gerber Tool, akin to a Leatherman but I’m sure not reaching for a knife in a room filled with guns. Feel free to take it out". Which he did, at which point they all gathered around to see the Gerber Tool- apparently none of them had seen one before. Sure scare the hell out of me though. He was perfectly nice, handed it back to me when they were done passing it around. Again, THEY have the right to demand to see ID, and to inquire as to weapons worn on the person of others. I do not.
How very interesting that you feel the need to defend someone’s righ to carry a lethal weapon, at the expense of attacking my right to speak freely.
People who stand in a crowded theatre and yell “FIRE” are kooks. People who see something that is truly potentially lethal and out in public aren’t kooks, they’re civic-minded, and safety-conscious. At least, outside of the state of Arizona.
And not for nothing, but how “kooky” would I feel telling a flight attendant, " That guy took out his Passport and one of those little metal razor box cutter things slipped out, okay? ". Sure. Really kooky. After all, we’re not talking about a .45, just a cute little box cutter…hardly worth glancing at twice. Right? :mad:
Find someone else to call a kook.
Hypothetically speaking, if a person legally bearing a CCW permit, and having said weapon on his person, was reported to the police or the FBI by a private citizen, would the permit-holder have any standing for legal recourse against the turner-inner?
I was a Scoutmaster for some years and even afterwards, I stayed involved with the Boy Scouts for years more. From what I have read, the lawyer advice is very good and most Scouts carry their Scout Cards in their wallets, so the arresting officer, if he opened the wallet to get the kid’s ID, would have seen it.
Three knives. No big deal on a camping trip. In today’s world though, I once attended a camporee where NO KNIVES were allowed at all and I was somewhat stunned to say the least because camping requires knives. The Council did not agree. I wore a large sheath knife through the whole thing anyhow, one I used when I was a Boy Scout.
The biggest problem I have with the whole thing is that he is a Wiccian. Scouts do place very high value on the Christian God, though there are allowances made for other religions, but a Wiccian believes in no real God, but a forest spirit, if I am correct. A witch is technically one who believes in the Devil as their god, if I’m correct, something which goes against all Boy Scout codes of honor.
As a Scoutmaster, I might have a big problem with that. So might any judge he comes in front of, so he might not want to mention that, except to his lawyer.
After a camp out, most Scouts that I know of shed their large knives before going out in public. Now you keep saying pouch knives, but do you mean sheath knives? A pouch knife, worn on the belt with the flap snapped is legal. Around here, it is hard to find a redneck who doesn’t have one glued to his butt nearly 24/7.
Now, we have a funny law here also, which might apply to your case. Here you may walk around with a gun in plain sight and be legal. Shove it in a holster and let you jacket cover most of it and you become illegal. Splitting hairs certainly, but the officer might have assumed that your friend did not always walk around with his coat pleated up over his knife.
However, there was no excuse for the officer being a bear about it. I would assume that the charges will be dropped before appearing in court. Your friend being an Eagle Scout will count heavily towards his credibility. Unfortunately, thanks to the officers pigheadedness, your friend will be out the cost of a lawyer no matter what. You could try legal aide first.
You’re not correct.
You’re not correct.
It’s not hypothetical ONE bit. However, in the environment we live in these days, I am loathe to call the local P.D., the local F.B.I. office OR the State Police and ask them about hypotheticals.
If I could figure out where to look in the NY State Law, I’d be glad to let you know. Sua, wanna jump in here and tell me how I can find out if reporting that hypothetical gun-toter opens me to “recourse” ?
I’m hoping that you mean LEGAL recourse.
I was. Hence my use of the pronoun “I”. If it is someone I do not know, I get nervous if I know they’re carrying a weapon, as I have no idea as to their intent, if any. If it is someone I know, then I might possibly feel safer. That would depend on the person though.
(Emphasis added)
I’ll give you ten guesses, and the first nine don’t count. :rolleyes:
Since the person to whom you were referring doesn’t, to the best of my knowledge, reside in NY, NY state law isn’t necessarily relevant in this here hypothetical.
Let’s for the sake of argument say we were in Vermont when this hypothetical turning-in took place. Vermont allows anyone, citizen or non-citizen, to carry a handgun concealed or openly without a permit, with a very few specific exceptions. So let’s say we were in Vermont, and you saw me in a bank with a handgun, and you called the FBI on me. Do you think I would have legal recourse?
And, to stem off any half-cocked tide of personal accusations, I do not now nor have I ever owned, possessed or fired a handgun.
It is extremely hypothetical, since you don’t live in the same state as The Sonoran Lizard King. If someone walked into a bank in NYC with a gun, you might be justified in calling the police. In Arizona, you wouldn’t.
And cazzle, since this is now in GD, please come back and tell us more about how “Americans have crazy ideas when it comes to weaponry, personal safety and civil liberties”. We’d love to hear from you, really.
Getting back to the OP, I too would like to know where Aqua is getting her definition of what constitutes a legally concealed knife. From the statute that Otto quoted, and that I also looked up, anything could be considered a “dangerous weapon”, even a pointy stick. Searching the Wisconsin statutes that astro provided a link to reveals that the only “knife” that is illegal is a switchblade.
It seems to me that the prosecutor would have to prove that “…the manner [the knife] is used or intended to be used, is calculated or likely to produce death or great bodily harm.” That would be extremely unlikely, IMO.
Excellent point. My apologies. I should have defined the state where this might occur. As pointed out, in Vermont such things are generally legal.
I’m done. Have fun.
In no way did I mean you should ask to see someones permit, but why would you call the FBI? They would just tell you to call the cops, as it is not a Federal matter. Thats what I meant by looking like a kook.
For what? It’s up to the cops whether or not to act on the tip. And where’s the damage to the permit holder? All he/she needs do is show the permit, and everything’s hunky-dory.
It’s the duty of a private citizen to get involved in a potentially dangerous situation. Getting involved isn’t restricted to pulling a gun.
We knew this thread was going here, didn’t we? 
Peace,
mangeorge
My understanding of CCW law is that the permit-holder has no recourse provided the person turning them in has convinced the police that they had a legitimate concern, and were not doing it for harrasment purposes, as a prank, or to falsify a police report.
My understanding from what a cop in a CCW State posted on another Board that I read is that if someone comes up and points out that a person has a concealed weapon, they will certainly go and “make their presence known” to the person who has been pointed out, then watch their reaction. He claimed that they watch for people who are “overly nervous” or “overly calm”, as, in his opinion, most all law-abiding citizens are slightly nervous about CC when they are around law enforcement, because it was still a new concept to many in their State (AZ). He said they would only go up to ask to see their permit if they had a reason to suspect by the person’s actions, or if they seemed too nervous or too calm. Interesting - if you take his word for it, the best possible response is to always be a little on edge when around the police…always good advice.
Bingo. If I walked up to a cop in a CC state and said to her in all earnestness, “Ma’am, that guy over is acting hinky and I think he’s packing heat,” no one has a (civil) cause of action or a (criminal) complaint against me. Ditto if I, again in all earnestness accused the same guy of being a Martian with a death ray. The second may earn me a free night at Bellevue, but no legal sanctions may be imposed by anyone involved.
Sua
I said earlier that I don’t intend to debate this issue because I’m not prepared to change my mind, and I doubt I can influence you to change yours. It doesn’t matter that it’s been moved to Great Debates - I’m not going to get involved in a fight that can’t be resolved. I believe in gun control, and a serious reduction in civil liberties, especially in war time. You believe in personal freedom, and the right to defend yourself (and you’d probably add “especially in war time” too). That’s all there is to it.
My statement that Americans have strange ideas about these things - I stand by it. From my perspective, it is a strange point of view, but I live in a country that is much less permissive about letting its citizens arm themselves. From your point of view, I’m sure you find it strange that Australians let their government take away their semi-automatic weapons after the Port Arthur massacre, and a number of Australians did object. I was not one of them. Call me strange - you have a right to your opinion, just as I have a right to mine. Doesn’t mean either of us are correct.
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*Originally posted by Cartooniverse *
Well, Cartooniverse, If I’m doing it properly, you’ll never know I was armed. That what the First C in CCW is all about. I’m also neither a hotshot, nor a cowboy. I’m a mild mannered bureaucrat who has seen way too much victimization of the weak and helpless. I am, however ‘delighted’ that my state doesn’t feel that the only firepower should be in the hands of law enforcement, or criminals. There is a middle ground. They are called ‘Law abiding citizens’ and they should have the tools to back up the courage of their convictions. If your best weapon against crime is a phone, I wish you clarity of vision, and the wisdom to know what is a legitimate threat.
I truly hope I am never in a situation to have to use my weapon. Truly. But if I am, I would rather have it, than have to wish there was a cop around.
Peace.
Sorry, missed your post on the way through. It IS legal to carry knives three inces or under concealed according to our municipal code. Im not going to link to it because I would like to preserve that teeny bit of annonimity, but while the Wisconsin state statues do not specify the size of the blade, the city statues do specify. It also specifies that you may carry larger knives UNconcealed. Indeed the only restriction in Wisconsin is for CONcealed weapons. And again, of course, I would not carry ANYTHING that could be consitituted as a weapon into a federal building. In fact, I was in court to witness for trial once and I had a KitKat in the breast pocket of my blazer, yep, you guessed it, that set off the metal detectors.
That’ll teach ya that KitKats must be handled with caution.
~Aqua
I don’t get you, Cazzle. You made all these sweeping assumptions about AquaPura’s friend…assumptions that were wrong. You said his friend was lying to the police officer when he said he was coming back from a camping trip. But AquaPura said his friend WAS NOT lying. He was indeed returning from a camping trip. And you assumed also that he was lying because he wasn’t in uniform. And later posters said Scouts don’t have to wear uniforms on camping trips. I mean, you don’t have to apologize for your beliefs about weapons by any means, but dammit! I think you should at least say “oops, my bad, i was wrong to say he was lying when he was really telling the truth”
This boy sounds pretty honorable AND trustworthy…he didn’t break any laws. His choice of knives, and the way he chose to carry them were acceptable under the law. He got treated like shit from that police officer.
I personally would be kinda leery of a dude wearing dark clothes, having a pentagram around his neck, and carrying a knife or several. But I would reserve judgment and assumptions until all of the facts were known. Too bad some people can’t do that.
And I do agree with the lawyer advice. Defense lawyers are a PART of the system. That’s why they exist!! That’s why they have to provide you one if you can’t afford one of your own.
Lorie
I stand by my call. Ok, so he wasn’t in uniform - that’s not what I based my assumption on. He was using the excuse that he was carrying a knife because he was just back from camping, when in fact he had been home, and instead of running in the house and dumping the knives, he carried them with him. Why was he in such a hurry to sit on a bench in front of a store and discuss how to spend the rest of the day? Why couldn’t he take the time to leave the knives home? Therefore, I stand by my belief that he lied to the cop, because he wasn’t JUST back from camping, he’d had an opportunity to leave the knives behind and didn’t take it, and when asked why he was carrying them, he said he was just back from camping. He didn’t say “I always carry them”, which the OP suggests he does, he felt compelled to make an excuse for carrying knives.
I find it convenient that he was standing in his driveway when AquaPura picked him up, but she didn’t think to say that in the OP, just that she picked him up from home. As soon as I challenge the intergrity of that statement, we get the detail that he was in the driveway. And I find it hard to believe that anyone straight back from a camping trip wouldn’t feel the need to shower, or at least change their clothes. This is why I thought he must have changed out of uniform - who goes out in their camping clothes? How long was he camping for? Where? How did he stay clean and unsmelly enough not to need to change while still roughing it enough to need to carry three knives?
And then we’re told that one of the knives was being given to AquaPura to be engraved. Yet they didn’t share this detail with the cop? “Oh yeah, I’m carrying three knives, but you see this one is going in to be engraved”. Would that help calm a suspicious cop? It’s not fair to resent authority figures treating you without respect when you don’t treat them with respect. You may not think the cop had a right to stop you, but he’s just trying to do his job, and if you’re polite and respectful they’re not going to think you’re a villan. This is not about giving in to the big bad cops that hassle you - this is common courtesy.
Ok, I’m biased. The only person I ever knew who carried a knife - “Dook” - should have been locked up, as he was a danger to himself and others. He lived in a town with a population of less than 4000, a town with no history of violent crime, and he carried this great big knife in a sheath at his ankle at all times. If he was in your house, you had to keep an eye on him because he would absentmindedly play with his knife, and gouge holes in your furniture. He was a strange and unpleasant fellow, and to the best of my knowledge has embarked upon a life of crime. He is the kind of person who shouldn’t be allowed to handle anything sharper than a plastic spoon, and I am relived to know that if he was caught carrying that knife in public, it would be taken from him. You say your friend is a boyscout who’s never done anything wrong before? I say I don’t know your friend from Job, but if I saw a youth in a public place with a knife, I’d be picturing Dook rather than an eagle scout.
Again, he HADN"T been home, he didn’t bother running in the house to drop his knives OR clean out his pockets OR take a bath because I was waiting for him. He was being polite.
Again, he did NOT lie to the cop. He WAS just back from camping, the officer never asked him if he had time to run in the house. The officer asked why he was carring those PARTICULAR knives. The two largest ones are not the prettiest knives and he uses them camping because if they would have gone missing it wouldn’t have been such a big deal. He often has OTHER knives that he has on him which are nicer, and more expensive, that he WOULDN’T want to loose. Again, the officer asked why he was carring those particualr knives and it was the exacting truth. Yes, he nearly ALWAYS has a knife on him, as the OP suggests. But SO DO I, and I have never EVER been hasseled about it, even when mine were larger.
Believe it or not, they had showers where they camped, and had only been gone for two days, so he didn’t smell like a water buffalo, and he wasn’t filthy because IMAGINE THAT as he was prepared enough to bring his knives along, HE ALSO BROUGHT SOME CLEAN CLOTHES! I don’t know if camping in Austrailia is differnt but we often camp near things to do in cities and such, so yes many of us go out in the SAME clothes that we camp in! Amazing isn’t it?
In fact he DID share that detail with the cop, he shared MANY details with the cop, in a calm and respectful manner. He never raised his voice, he always called the officer “Sir”, and he followed the directions that he was given to the letter. the cop had every right to stop him and question him, THAT I don’t dispute. The cop DIDN’T have a right to frisk him, or ARREST him because the larger knives were NOT concealed. The thing I have a problem was that the cop lost control {i.e. yelling and cuffing hard enough to cut} and made a bad stop. Again, he wasn’t doing anything illegal. We have witnesses to that fact, but he has to go to court to dispute that fact. The cop was biased by his own admission because of the color of his clothing and his religion. That was the part that was also wrong.
Good to know, so the truth comes out. Have you ever thought of getting educated to WHY mentally balanced people carry a knife? I will tell you why, BECAUSE IT’S A TOOL!
Would you be biased against me? I’m not terribly menacing, I am a five foot tall fat girl and YES darnit! I carry a knife! It is for opening a box, or a package, or for slicing my APPLE with my lunch!
I don’t mean to be exasperated but damn it, just because he was carring a knive does not mean that he is a liar, as you are wont to argue. If you are baised, get educated.
** PERIOD **