Article on Christianity and gaybashing

The BBQ Pit
41

Well, you’ve convinced me, gobear. Fuck that feel-good “tolerance” bullshit. Made-up-word-for-deity, how I hate those fucking fundamentalists! The way they wrap themselves in the American flag and justify their dismissive speech as patriotism. The way they separate other people into “the good ones” while making broad generalizations about “the bad ones.” The way that any time they get close to having a valid point about a genuine issue, that point gets lost amidst their soapboxing and eagerness to dismiss an entire “bad” religion. And then the worst part – even after you’ve made it clear to them that you’re perfectly happy with your own belief system, they insist on imposing their own on you as the correct one, quoting from a book as if that were the final word on the subject. It’s almost as if they’re trying to convince themselves instead of really trying to help anyone else.

I’d say that you’re going to have to get used to the idea that I’m not standing up for a secular America. I’m standing up for a secular American government that allows a society where everyone is free to believe in what has value to him. In other words, a genuine free-thinking society. And you don’t get that from freaking out when you see a fish on a car or the word “God” on a dollar bill, or from making demands on people to fit a belief system that they don’t follow, or from mixing religon and science, or from mixing religion and politics, or from pointless repetitive demogoguery whether it’s about the jews/muslims/liberals or about the fundies.

And no, you don’t get it from repeating obvious platitudes on a message board over and over again, either, but that’s all I’ve got time for now.

Why do you ask, Homebrew?

42

So you don’t see any difference between, say, Sister Helen Prejean and Cardinal Law? They both believe in the same God and are members of the same church, yet I’d there’s a huge moral gulf between them. Maybe you don’t see it, but I do. So, yes, there are “good ones” and “bad ones.” As for my opinions of right-wingers and fundies, all I have to do is listen to their leaders like Pat Robertson, James Dobson, and Jerry Falwell.

And where do you get that from? My opinion on the Catholic church is based on objective facts, especially on the Amerrican Church’s protection of pedophiles at the cost of victimizing the children it’s supposed to protect.

And that would be a case of projection. Read post 35, and notice the part where I said:

Now go ahead and tell me again how I’m imposing my beliefs on you. I quoted Dan Barker to punctuate my point that faith is not an answer, but a refuge from troubling questions. You clearly disagree–that’s fine. I don’t expect you to change your beliefs, certainly not without years of thought and questioning. So be a good Christian, do some good where you are, and don’t expect that everyone is going to agree with you, or that your beliefs will never be questioned.

43

Just curious about how loving and accepting those good Christians are towards you.

44

Maybe I’m wrong here, but I thought that Cardinal Law wasn’t appointed a mass celebrant so much as that he was a mass celebrant by virtue of the post he already held. In other words, the rule is, “The Cardinal Priest in charge of church X will hold a mass when the pope dies”, and since Law was Cardinal Priest in charge of church X, he was the one who held the mass. It wasn’t a reflection on him personally.

45

But his appointment came after he left Boston in disgrace. I see your point that the Mass celebrant position in itself was merely a duty concmitant with Law’s position, but that he received the cardinal’s cap in the first place is still a disgrace.

46

See, we do have common ground and a position that we both share.

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And you don’t get that from freaking out when you see a fish on a car or the word “God” on a dollar bill

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You do see that there is a significant difference between the two, right? One is an expression of faith by a private citizen and the other is formal endorsement of religion by the government and a violtation of the Establishment Clause in the Constitution.

Which nobody is doing to you.

God, because religion has no connection to science and ought to be completely separate from politics

Holding a worldview based on logic instead of faith is hardly demogoguery.You certainly have every right to believe what you please, but you do not have the right to bar dissent or criticism of your beliefs. I think you are conflating freedom of religion with an immunity from disputation. You have every right to practice your faith, but you can’t tell freethinkers to be quiet when they point out that the Bible is internally inconsistent and that much of what it teaches is barbaric and immoral.

In all the time we have been posting at each other, you have never to my recollection actually argued for your faith. You call me names and nitpick my posts, but you don’t say what you believe. Are you still a Pentecostal? Do you believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Do you believe in continuing revelation and prophecy as a gift of the Spirit? I don’t really have a sense of where you are theologically, so it’s hard to discuss religion with you.

47

“The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. An evil soul producing holy witness is like a villain with a smiling cheek, a goodly apple rotten at the heart. O what a goodly outside falsehood hath!”
-William Shakespeare

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.”

  • Jesus (Matthew 23:15)

“This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me; their worship of Me is vain, for they teach as doctrines the commandments of men. You neglect the commandment of God, in order to maintain the tradition of men.”

  • Mark 7:7

“The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity.”
– John Adams

“A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side.”
– Aristotle

48

No shit! That’s pretty much my entire fucking point, which would be clear if stupid fucking quote battles and pointless arguments and pontificating and axe-grinding didn’t keep getting in the way.

Well then it’s a good thing we don’t discuss theology, isn’t it? It’s a hell of a lot easier to jump in and assume you’re being attacked, the both of us to go back and forth with pointless soapboxing disguised as a message board discussion, and it ending up with you getting called names and my nitpicking your posts, squelching free thinking, and calling for an end to free speech.

No, I’ve never posted my entire religious belief system. Because, as I’ve mentioned about a billion times by now, my religious beliefs are personal, as are everyone else’s. I have opinions on political issues and scientific issues that affect everyone, and will argue things that can be proven or disproven. How other people come to those opinions is irrelevant. If someone opposes civil rights on the grounds that their religion says it’s okay, I don’t give a rat’s ass what their religion is; I point out that their religion doesn’t necessarily apply to me, and to please stay on topic.

Thanks for your permission; I’ve already been doing that. As a good Christian, I invite you to read that and then do the same thing yourself, whether you call it being a good Christian or just being a good person.

49

Well, he became a cardinal before the whole scandal started, back in '84. As for the position he holds now, the church of St. Mary Major is one of the places where the Vatican puts retired cardinals while they wait for them to die. It’s not a particulary important or prestigious posting. You sort of get the idea that the people in the Vatican said, “We have to put Law somewhere, and it has to be somewhere that doesn’t require pastoral or administrative skills, because he’s shown he can’t handle that, so lets just put him in nominal charge of St. Mary Major, where he can just slip away to obscurity.” They might not have even thought of the fact that one of the jobs of the archpriest was to hold a memorial mass for the Pope.

50

No. They really are ethnically Jewish and really do believe in the divinity of Christ.

Haj

51

See,hajario, that’s where you’re wrong. A jew is a person born to a jewish mother. I am an examply of one, despite my atheism. These people worship jesus, so they are christians. But wait, they’re still etnically jewish! Wait, they worship “Christ”, so they’r(this goes on for a while.) :mad:

52

Yeah, but I think they were started as a front by some fundies who take advantage of non-practicing Jews who don’t really know their heritage-and claim that you can be Jewish (practicing) and still believe in Christ!

53

What a jerk you are.

I’m busy enough raising my own family but now because some so-called Christians do shitty hateful things it’s now MY RESPONSIBILITY to be pro-active and stop their madness because I’m just a garden-variety Episcopalian?

I am **not responsible ** for the sins of my neighbors. This is still America and as far as I know being bigotted isn’t against the law; it’s stupid, idiotic but not illegal. When these buffoons go over the line and commit crimes then they should be arrested and prosecuted.

Don’t you fucking dare try to pin any responsibility for those scumbags on me.

54

That could well be true. It certainly is true that the ones that I’ve been unfortunate enough to encounter over the last twenty years have been wholly ignorant of the Jewish side of the various religious arguments. Their Jewish learning stopped at Age 13, if that, and the recruiters take advantage of that fact by twisting the meaning of various Biblical verses.

Haj

55

Nuh-uh, BwanaBob! You’re responsible for ALL Christians (or people who call themselves Christians), at all times, because you are CHRISTIAN. There. That’s the bottom line.

And of course, as we all know, Mockingbird is responsible for the actions of every gay man in this world as well, as this is the group he chooses to associate himself with. This includes every catty remark ever made by any gay man, anywhere. As well as every HIV-infected person because of any HIV-poz gay guy in the world knowingly having sex unprotected. Every single annoyance created by gay men loudly discussing the latest West End musicals in London bars. Every single fucking time I get caught in traffic because these damn gays have to have their Gay Pride Parade in the canals of my fair city. It’s ALL Mockingbirds responsibility as well. He can tell me that not all gays act like that, but that’s bullshit. That’s just paying lip service.

So, as I see it, Mockingbird had better get his whiny ass off that cross himself, as he’s got a lot of apologising to do. 'T would only be fair.

56

Que the “You can’t make that comparison, Coldfire, because religion is a choice but homosexuality isn’t” brigade.

I’ve been through arguments like these enough I could probably write entire threads, including the hijacks and trainwrecks, by myself. They’ve gotten as routine as the opening moves of chess games. Someone should compile them into a book–think of all the typing we could save if we could simple post the name of the trainwreck that’s about to happen and skip the actual derailing. :stuck_out_tongue:

57

Bwana Bob: It irritates me when I get painted with the same brush, too. But all we can do is to do what we can, individually, and as part of corporate efforts like my (denominational) church’s, to distance ourselves from the assholes and to combat them with the truth.

But one thing that hit when I read your post was this: “Am I my brother’s keeper?”

58

Why?

The issue is being held responsible for the actions of others whom you have very little in common with, not refusing to care about their well-being. They are two completely seperate notions.

59

I’d restate that as “religion is an ideology and homosexuality is a state of being”–are you denying that? What are you trying to say?

I don’t hold all Christians responsible for the behavior of their more mean-spirited co-religionists. I’ve said that many, many times, although it is always ignored. My problem is that the intolerant Pharisee wing of the Christian religion is well-orgnaized, armed with databasesof contributors, influence in the national media, and most important the sympathetic ear of the president and a majority of Congress, as well as in the statehouses of much of the country. When gay folk like me criticise these bigots for wielding their religion as a weapon, the supposedly good-hearted, tolerant folks like Zoe in this thread attack the critics, not the bigots.

Note she accuses me of bigotry in that thrread, when what I said weas

Even when I explicitly say qualify my statements, I get accused of anti-Christian bigotry, as if gay people and and the hate lobby are on a level playing field, as if I’m picking on poor, misunderstood James Dobson, Jerry Falwell, and Pat Robertson and the fundie dickheads who use lying propaganda about gay people to get anti-gay marriage amendments added to the constitutions in 15 states and counting.

Coincidentally, I’m currently reading Deborah Lipstadt’s History on Trial, her account of the libel action launched against her in the UK by David Irving, the now-discredited Holocaust denier. Irving’s prosecution team and the English media used the same arguments that people use here, that calling out a bigot on his hate is itself bigotry.

I don’t expect any single Christian or pro-gay Republican to shoulder the burden of reversing the tide of intiolerance that is sweeping our country, but what you must not do is saty silent. I’ll share with you soemthing that happend at work a week or so ago. A co-worer and I were discussing the American Idol results show, and I said that I liked Anwarm ut he needs to sing better to win. She said, “I don’t like Anwar, he seems kinda sweet (African American slang for gay) to me.” I said, “What’s wrong with being sweet ?” She said, “I don’t like sweet boys, that;s nasty.” I said, “I’m sweet, am I nasty?” She mumbled something and walked away. We haven’t talked since. I’m not obviously gay, but I’m damn sure not going to be quiet when I hear bigotry epxpressed like that. I don’t ask anything of anyone that I’m not willing to do myself.

To quote Coretta Scott King, "
“I believe all Americans who believe in freedom, tolerance, and human rights, have a responsibility to oppose bigotry and prejudice based on sexual orientation.”

60

As I’ve said before, my church, and its predecessor national church within the Orthodox/Catholic system, were claiming to be Christian centuries before Darby ever misread the New Testament or Schaeffer and Falwell created their Unholy Alliance. I don’t plan to give up that term, which summarizes our efforts to follow the teachings and example of Jesus the Christ. It’s important to defining who I am.

But retaining that term which they have compromised into a Neopharisee judgmentalism makes me complicit in what they say or do claiming to be speaking in its name, unless I should speak out and preach the Gospel of Love, Forgiveness, and Acceptance “Just as I am, without one plea” as vocally as I can. Which is also, be it noted, the task set on me by Jesus Himself in His commands to those who have chosen to follow Him.

So in a very real sense I am responsible for what they say; they claim to be speaking for me, and it’s incumbent on me to deny that, and say what the real truth of Jesus’s message is.

As for Gobear’s occasional condemnation of all Christians, I take it with a grain of salt, knowing what he really means. It may be instructive to note that in 1940, FDR was running for reelection. He repeatedly promised, explicitly, that no American serviceman would fight in World War II, already going on in Europe between Britain/France and Nazi Germany, unless we were ourselves attacked. There are at least six documented instances where he said this complete with that italicized clause. Then on one occasion he was speaking in Boston, was challenged by an isolationist, and repeated the promise without the italicized clause. And a few vicious Republicans [not tarring the Republican Party in general here; they were his political opponents at the time] proceeded to attack him for that when Pearl Harbor happened and we did enter the war. If Gobear says a dozen times that he doesnt mean me or Siege or Sol or RT or Baker when he attacks the mean-spirited “Christians” of the Religious Right, and one or two times neglects to tack on that disclaimer, it would be emulating the late Senators Nye and Borah, whom I detest, to take offense at that.