Arturo's open letter to Lynn, et al

The BBQ Pit
1

This is in regards to:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=92125

I have mailed the following to Lynn Bodoni. I then decided to post it, for God knows what reason. It will probably offend some of you, but I also know that some of you agree with me. And those of you I thank. And while I consider the Internet one of the best references a writer can have (a dictionary, encyclopedia, a thesaurus, a newspaper, etc. all at one’s fingertips), I believe that I will remain a passive viewer of the net, not an active poster. I’m sure this saddens none of you, but at least I’ll get it off my chest.

Message follows:

Lynn

Quote:

"I’m locking this thread instead of moving it. Let it Serve As An Example.

Lynn
For the Straight Dope"

An example which proves my point, I guess.
Did I - what netizens seem to call a “newbie” - post my level-headed concern in the wrong forum? God forbid. It’s a good thing you locked it instead of moving it to the pit. It’s a horrible shame that I mistook “concerns about the SDMB” to mean emotional concerns.
I have never been in a crowded room of human beings who act in the manner of message board posters. I have never met anyone so unflinchingly static or self-involved as some of these posters. And I have certainly never thrown anyone out for raising an intelligent question.
Like I said, I don’t know the etiquette regarding message boards, nor do I care. I know the etiquette of real conversations, which seem much more vibrant than what passes for knowledge on the SDMB.
The Cecil Adams of almost 20 years ago was nothing like this flaccid banality that passes for intelligence now. Mr. Adams was a real-world version of the fictional characters of my youth such as Gregory McDonald’s I.M. Fletcher: truly wise “wise-guys” who knew that the truth is never offensive. Remember the pot plants, the semen calories, and all the other great columns Cecil wrote when he was getting his feet wet? Remember his wit, his back-handed compliments, his occasional risque humor? There did not seem to be much worrying about offending someone. Now, it seems, any person who has ideas which may ruffle someone’s feathers gets attacked and/or banned. Threads get closed because the poster didn’t bother looking it up on Google. This is sad. This is nothing like the Cecil Adams I read long ago - and still re-read now.
I wonder if all Internet message boards are like this. You have proven that the Straight Dope is no longer the amazing work it once was. It makes me sad to remember how happy I was to find the web-site, how I begged my publisher to start printing the column, how I rushed to buy the recent collections I never knew had been published. It makes me sad because of what Cecil has allowed to fester beneath all of this greatness. I had never met too many people in my life who had read the Straight Dope - very few, it seemed, had even heard of it. Now I find a whole “community” of fans and it turns out that I have so little in common with most of their petty concerns.
Well, I guess I was wrong when I wrote: “you can close this thread because it’s in the wrong forum or because I offended some poor, withering soul and then I’ll go on with my life.” And I’m sure that my raging against the storm will bear no results, but it feels better to get it off my chest. I’ve still got the old books – which hold up better than even William Poundstone’s Big Secrets series, I must admit – and I guess they will have to do.

–A.B.

2

Do you write long letters to McDonald’s lamenting the good ole days when you get served cold fries?

Do you have unresolved issues and burning internal anger over the quality drop in paperclips over the last decade?

3

Arturo,

I am deeply ashamed for what part I have played in your impression. If it matters at all, I do care what you think, and I empathize with your sadness. Despite the sickness here, there is goodness, too. Please lurk for a while in Great Debates, and see whether anything there catches your fancy. It’s less cliquish than the rest of the board, and your good arguments will stand for themselves.

God go with you.

4

How about we close the message board, replace Cecil, burn down the offices of The Chicago Reader, and but the Moderators in the stocks and throw rotten fruit at them for a week?

Would that be satisfactory?

5

If you’re unhappy about the quality of Cecil’s articles, don’t read 'em. What the board has to do with it, I do not know. For somebody who just joined to start mouthing off about the adminstration seems really arrogant, not to metion oddly peevish. Remember, you don’t have to post here. The Internet is a big place, and I’m sure you’ll find a more congenial online community.

6

I think to test the roots of convictions you’ve got to butt the stump every once in awhile. I’ve not been here long enough to agree one way or another on your post but I’m damn glad you shared it with us and I’ll certainly keep it in mind. So far I like it here and hope your feelings soften and that we’ll hear more from you. And Cecil. And Lynn.

7

Why do people feel compelled to leave long ‘goodbye cruel world’ missives written in their own bitter tears before skulking out the door? Arturo seems to be a thoughtful, well spoken sort; so taking him at his word that he is new arrival and not an alter ego, why would he simply not say to himself, “c’est la vie. The SDMB is not to my liking,” and delete the book mark?

I’m not so much offended at the possibility that the OP may count me among the “unflinchingly static or self-involved” posters, as I am amused that someone would look upon an entire community where they felt they didn’t quite fit in and pronounce smugly that it is the community that is in err while they themselves are the last bastion of intelligent discourse.

8

Another pompous, self absorbed fucktwaddle who laments the downward spiral into mediocrity that is the Sraight Dope.

Get lost, asshole. Where do you get off criticising an entire community?

Stick around for a while. Post. Read. Interact. Get to know some of the people in here. Then if the spirit moves you, tell us what bothers you about this place.

Of course, there’s always the danger that if you do stick around, you may find that this place is not so bad after all.

Shmuck.

9

Arturo, please forgive the point-by-point::

:shrug: And rock and roll is dead. It sucks. But no one stays the same over twenty years. Not the Stones, not Liza Minelli, and not Cecil. We move on.

Please, please remember that Cecil is not a message board, and the message board is not Cecil. The MB is a community of people, by people, and is owned by the Chicago Reader. Cecil’s name is on it because his column is also owned by the Reader.

But ya knwo what else? I think you’re wrong. Near as I can figure, there are a hell of a lot of ideas here that ruffle people’s feathers. We have racists and antiracists, violently pro-gay and violently anti, aggressively anti-abortion and aggressively pro-choice–and even a few who are actively pro-abortion.

It seems to me that simply holding and stating an opinion does not get one banned. Being a jerk, however subjective that might be, does. Deliberate trolling get Sultan banned, not his opinions.

(What thread was closed because the OP didn’t look it up on Google?)

The Cecil you read long ago simply didn’t answer stupid questions. Of the thousands of questions he received, he answered the ones he wanted to, and only those.

[quore]I wonder if all Internet message boards are like this. You have proven that the Straight Dope is no longer the amazing work it once was.
[/quote]

By and large, people are people everywhere. Some are going to piss you off. This MB is no worse than any other, and better than some.

But I do not understand how you draw your conclusions here. The Straight Dope is the Straight Dope–a newspaper column. I’m not sure why the message board detracts from the column for you.

Again, people are people. I’m sorry you thought we were all going to be like you, or like your image of Cecil. But there’s no such Paradise, for any of us. If you are no longer interested in remaining here, now that you realize that we’re just normal people, then you’re of course free to walk away. If you are willing to set your sights a little below perfection, however, you can simply do as Lib has insinuated–participate as much as you wish, and ignore the people that bug you.

It was certainly a bit rude, IMO.

It’s not a storm. It’s a message board. Really, try not to make this too big a deal. Read the books, enjoy them, do what you have to do. But there’s no margin in getting worked up about things.

-andros-

10

Note the juxtaposition:

-and-

I do acknowledge, Sir, that if your great concerns are the proper care and feeding of pot plants and the caloric content of semen, you do not have a great deal in common with our petty concerns.

Sua

11

I can see how it can be a little disheartning to see the pile-ons that occur here. I have been a victim many times myself. I have been insulted for personal opinions and for jokes. I have been mocked and have been the victim of many a flame.

To some extent some of what goes on here is cliq-ish/political. After a bit of posting people can establish allies. These people become vocal in each others threads, so when one starts bitch-slapping someone pit-style, others ride in to help. Often in this tag-along funtime, people go overboard. They attack something too fiercly, or insult someone a little too cruelly. Often, they do this with the intention of getting that person to not want to come here anymore. I believe I have been a victim of these attempts as well.

Sometimes these attempts, I think, have been based on a belief that what I say is wrong. Other times, I think, it has been based on a misunderstanding of what I am saying, and still other times I think it has been based on jealousy. Some people do covet the attention this site affords. To post some words that can be read by a couple hundred people inside of an hour is human interaction. Some people can’t get enough of the attention, and so they are hard on (read:insulting) minor infractions.

They puff up there chests and act conceited and condescending because it makes them feel better. I think alot of these types of folks are the ones who aren’t very good socially in the real world. This place gives them a chance for social success they might not get anywhere else. And nothing will unite people like firing up a little “Us”-against-“Them” mentality. Howard Bloom speaks about the phenomenon in his book “The Lucifer Principal”. It happens at all scales of human interaction, and is something to see when you’re watching out for it.

Then if someone DOES get fed up with it, and as a result stop posting, a “Don’t let the door hit you” is posted everyone chuckles, and goes back to hairless ape interaction. More commonly, and here is the real shame to me, they get caught in a silly little trap. They get egged on to the point where they want to fight back. They get taunted and taunted until they cross the line and get banned. It’s not the Mods faults, it’s the posters for being stupid enough to fall into it.

Now, I (unlike the OP) have found this place to be overall GREAT!!! The wit, intelligence, and knowledge available is mind-blowing. I WANT to participate. But I came along and have gotten attacked time and time again. So what am I to do? I have a couple options. I can yell and scream at anyone who yells or screams at me. I can leave. I can complain to the mods. Or (and this is what I try to do) I can just laugh. Laugh at the pettyness, and then ignore it. That is the beauty of this internet. You get to make it what you want it. If you want it to be about porn and drugs and murder it can be. If you want it to be about science and art and entertainment, it can be that too.

This board is similar. If you look for it, you can find some brilliant discussion on almost any topic. Sure, you can also find pettyness, inclusiveness, and jerkiness. But you can just roll your eyes and hit the back button, and it no longer concerns you.

It is impossible to have a utopia in real life, or on a discussion board. This place has thousands of members. That’s what makes it cool, but that also increases the amount of punks. No way to stop it. The only thing you do have power over is how you personally behave. Lead by example, and don’t sweat the jerks. Help a newbie to understand every now and then with a helpfull e-mail. Lord knows I’ve gotten a ton of them, and they are all usually very kind and polite.

But don’t sweat the behaviour of those pile-on junkies. The world is too big to do it all yourself, so you have to fight the battles that can be won. And the best way I’ve found to win battles around here is to be calm and collected. Laugh at insults and answer them with humour. Even if a percentage of people are being jerks, the overall intelligence is so great here, that a larger percentage will usually see them for the jerks they are, provided you don’t put your foot in your mouth first. If you can’t take it cool and calmly, then back out of the thread and ignore it.

There is way too much here that’s dope to disgard the whole place cause a couple people like to be bullies whenever they get the chance. Get what you can that’s positive from here. If you can’t find anything that’s positive here, then perhaps it is time to leave. But I’m guessing if that’s the case you’re just not looking hard enough.

DaLovin’ Dj

12

Andros,

One question, please. If we will abide racists (can you think of one extant off-hand?) and violently anti-gays (can you think of one extant off-hand?), why is it we cannot abide a dissenter? (Who expresses himself rather civily, I must say, despite the incredibly infantile jackling that’s hurled back at him.)

13

Arturo.

Hi there. I came to these boards from teh exact opposite direction. I’m not here because I adore Cecil. I will on ocassion pick up a column, but only because some of the people that I respect and love here seem to like the guy. I’m here because I enjoy the quality of the people, the thoughts, the depth of thinking that goes into this place. (Yea, yea, oral sex threads and snowball fights aside…)

I don’t have enough of an opportunity to hang out with smart people in my life. So I hang out here a bit. I like knowing that people who think exist, regardless of if I agree with them. I’m not here to revere Cecil, I’m sorry. I’m here to be with people.

I’m also not here to be abused or to abuse anyone. Its not fun, not my cup of tea.

This is how I fit into the boards as a whole. I’m reasonably intellegent and I don’t often get in over my head. I think that is all that can really be expected in fighting ignorance. There is no fighting of ignorance in listing to pure abuse. There is no fighting ignorance when someone is just trying to annoy you. There is nothing to fight but your own reactions to emotion.

You think. That is great and I’d like to see you around more. I’m sorry that the boards aren’t full of the many facets of Cecil, he had to delegate that to a bunch of real people. Putzes like me. Putzes like a lot of the human race. You won’t find Utopia here. You’ll just find people.

14

Well, Lib. I see you’re not done with this after all, as you indicated in another thread. One that you started.

Incredibly infantile jackling, huh?

You see Arturo as a prophet, and I see him as a pompous windbag.

We’re here to fight ignorance, so you’re right and I’m wrong.

I stand corrected.

You’re both pompous windbags.

15

And you’ve only been here a month and a half! :wink:

Well, I do. Modern paper clips are crap compared with the clips of my youth. The steel is thin and poorly tempered. The plating cracks and stabs me.

drop “I’m in no clique that I know of. I’m just a jerk.” zone

16

Two and a half thank you very much. Not that I’m counting . . .

17

Well, Slip. I see you still don’t quite follow antecedants. The “this” was the other thread. Here’s five bucks. Go buy a clue.

18

Without going into involved dissection, Arturo, your post sounded like my grandmother – “In the good old days, that sort of thing never happened. Why, …”

I beg to differ. Cecil’s columns 20 years ago represented the cream of the questions, with the best and most cynical answers. And when one didn’t have the right “taste,” you simply ignored it, since he’d be back to form next time.

Not all of us are Cecils. As Lib eloquently said, we’re a real mixed group, but with sensible and cogent posters discussing a variety of points of view, on everything from the ultimately trivial (MPSIMS) to the literally earthshaking (GD) and all matters in between.

As someone once said, “When something you love begins to go downhill, there are two things to do: Quit. Or stay and help fix the problem.” The mature person digs in and tries to work on the fix.

Stick around. We need you. Not to whine about how banal it all is. But to ask the questions and make the remarks that lift us from banality, if you can.

Most of us try. Andros is a master of the pithy remark that turns an argument on its ear. Lib. himself is capable of pungent insight and trenchant analysis of a bizarre POV. Tracer spins a witty remark that pokes holes in pomposity. Gaudere is capable of arguing virtually any given POV when she feels it appropriate to the continued exploration of a question. Duck Duck Goose has both the ability to provide insight and almost unparalleled skills at Internet research – I’m confident that if someone wanted to know who wrote the article alleging that the Iceman was gay (Cecil did a column but did not give the hoaxer’s name), DDG would have the answer in 20 minutes. Or whether Horemheb was subject to baldness – give her 30 minutes for that one. Jodi and Sua Sponte can provide a quick summary of the law and a scholarly analysis of its implications, combined when appropriate with their own views on its propriety. I have never seen a question on Christianity, no matter how arcane, that Tom~ of tomndebb could not provide a documented answer to in short order, and make the results a masterpiece of clarity to boot.

And the bizarre sorts of topics you made reference to get covered just as much these days as ever – it’s merely in the mix.

“They don’t write them like they used to.” Well, sorry, but they still do. It’s just that you remember the best of then, and fail to take into account that the same garbage that threatens to drown out the best now was making the same threat then.

I challenge you to get involved. A suggested thread to start: “Should the U.S. take over Afghanistan” over in G.D. – maybe you can get through the bizarreness and make some sense out of what’s going on. Or jump into the “Comments” boards – they seem to have had less than usual participation the last few months, based on casual observation.

19

Freakin’ Whiner!

Why don’t you stop complaining and do what I do?

I get a piece of angle iron, and put it on a hot forge, folding it over and pounding it hundreds of times, until I end up with purest carbon steel which I then extrude into wire and hand bend.

Now that’s a paperclip!

20

I’m not Andros, but I can think of one off-hand. Wildest Bill. Lately perhaps he’s been heading for a banning(maybe), but as of this post he hasn’t been. He also has his fans, mostly ones that stick to IMHO and MPSIMS it seems, but they do exist. And if you look over a lot of his threads in GD, you can see his racism(his recent threads about “Towelheads”) and homophobia(numerous threads). Not to mention his very unChristianlike desires for violence against abortion doctors.