As American as chop suey?

[Johnny_L.A]

I’ve always heard that chop suey was invented in America by Chinese immigrants. But according to this Wiki, it really comes from China.

Chop suey is widely believed to have been invented in America by Chinese immigrants, but in fact comes from Taishan, a district of Guangdong Province which was the home of many of the early Chinese immigrants; the Hong Kong doctor Li Shu-fan reported that he knew it in Taishan in the 1890s.

The article goes on to say:

Chop suey first appears in an American publication in 1888: “A staple dish for the Chinese gourmand is chow chop svey [sic], a mixture of chickens’ livers and gizzards, fungi, bamboo buds, pigs’ tripe, and bean sprouts stewed with spices.” In 1898, it is described as “A Hash of Pork, with Celery, Onions, Bean Sprouts, etc.”

<snip>

Outside of Taishan, the name “chop suey” or "shap sui in Cantonese, and “za sui”, when used in Mandarin, has the somewhat different meaning of cooked animal offal or entrails.

So is there a distinction between traditional chop suey, and what we’re all used to here? Or can we no longer say ‘As American as chop suey’?

[Exapno_Mapcase]

Chop suey undoubtedly appears earlier. Chop suey: a cultural history of Chinese food in the United States By Andrew Coe gives cites back at least to 1886 and “chop soly” to 1883. It was also known as “chow-chop-sui.”

The Google Books excerpt is too chopped up to read comprehensively, but Coe appears to assert definitively that it was an American invention.

[jz78817]

shrug

China’s a pretty big country with a hell of a lot of people, and prior to the mobility of modern times I can easily see how various regions would have their own cuisine. I don’t really obsess over authenticity or anything, though. If I like the way something tastes, I don’t really care if it’s watered-down “Cantonese” or “Szechuan” or the like.

I look to try other culture’s food as much as possible, but I’m not going to be an elitist prick about something just because it’s not 100% authentic.

[Johnny_L.A]

@Exapno_Mapcase

The Google Books excerpt is too chopped up to read comprehensively, but Coe appears to assert definitively that it was an American invention.

You’re right. It’s pretty much a hash. I see these sections:

In any case, there’s little doubt that this dish – in its manifestation as a stir-fried organ meat and vegetable medley – originated in the Sze Yap area around Toishan.

And (of the story that chop suey was unknown in China and was invented (probably) in San Francisco):

So why did the ‘experts’ repeat a story that appears to have no basis in fact?

Those quotes indicate that chop suey was eaten in certain parts of China and brought over to America. What part indicates to you that Coe appears to assert that it was an American invention?

[jz78817]

I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s at least something in “real” Chinese cuisine that is pretty darn close. I mean, even now we have things like chicken tikka masala which have heavy influences from an immigrant culture but have been tailored to local tastes.

if you ask me it’s all good.

[Exapno_Mapcase]

@Johnny_L.A

Those quotes indicate that chop suey was eaten in certain parts of China and brought over to America. What part indicates to you that Coe appears to assert that it was an American invention?

From this on p. 155:

This, Wong claims, may be justly termed the national dish of China.

Having traveled in China, Wong must have known this statement was incorrect.

I assumed “this” referred to chop suey, since the next two sentences refer to chop suey and p. 154 wasn’t part of the preview.

When I type in Sze Yap and Toishan I get references to non-preview pages. How did you access them? Or does Google randomly make pages available to different computers?

jz78817, I give up. Why should anybody care about your opinions on an issue not related to the actual question?

[Johnny_L.A]

@Exapno_Mapcase

From this on p. 155:

This, Wong claims, may be justly termed the national dish of China.

Having traveled in China, Wong must have known this statement was incorrect.

I assumed “this” referred to chop suey, since the next two sentences refer to chop suey and p. 154 wasn’t part of the preview.

When I type in Sze Yap and Toishan I get references to non-preview pages. How did you access them? Or does Google randomly make pages available to different computers?

The quote is from page 161. I don’t know if the text is dynamic.

Regarding your quote, Wong seems to have claimed that chop suey is the national dish of China. I agree that this is false, China being such a large country. It would be like saying grits are the national dish of the United States. Some people eat them, but I never saw them on any menu until I went to New Orleans. While the majority of Chinese may not eat chop suey – or have (or had) even heard of it – Coe’s dismissal of Wong’s claim doesn’t say anything about chop suey’s origin.

[Fear_Itself]

And there is American Chop Suey, a popular comfort food served for dinner in New England which is not Chinese at all. Think macaroni and a red sauce with ground beef like you would make for spaghetti, without the oregano or basil. Beefaroni, if you will.

[Johnny_L.A]

Sounds like what my mom would have called ‘goulash’.

[Fear_Itself]

@Johnny_L.A

Sounds like what my mom would have called ‘goulash’.

Same stuff, different names in different regions. Took me by surprise when I first moved here.

[Exapno_Mapcase]

I can’t get to p. 161 nohow, not even in the Amazon look inside the book feature. However, I’ll cheerfully concede that your quote trumps mine. I found a later section that talks about the “hoax” that it was an American invention and that seems to be that.

However, Coe is a better source than the ones that Wiki uses and puts the term back several years, so it’s a good find. I hope samclem is reading.

[jz78817]

jz78817, I give up. Why should anybody care about your opinions on an issue not related to the actual question?

sorry to have taken up so much of your precious time. I’ll not bother you again.