I think you mean that they advocate harsher sentencing for hate crimes, rather than that they propose treating non-bias-motivated murders as lesser crimes. Their basic argument seems to be this: if the “heinousness” (discussed by the Supreme Court in this decision) of a crime legitimately affects the severity of its punishment, then anti-minority bigotry makes a murder more “heinous,” just as extreme cruelty, atrocity, or brutality does in the case of an ordinary (non-bias-motivated)murder.
I tend to agree, although I think you’re right for the wrong reason. As I pointed out, the same crime is often punished differently in different instances according to the “heinousness” of the act. What bothers me is that this reasoning seems to consider an ordinary murder to be a Bad Thing, but a bias-motivated murder to be two Bad Things: a murder plus an expression of hatred towards a minority group. Therefore the increased severity of the sentence is essentially a punishment for the expression of hatred. I’m very wary about the idea of punishing people for the expression of anything, no matter how revolting I find what they express. People in this country should allowed to express hatred of gays or other minorities (as long as they do it where I can’t hear them) if they don’t break the law in the process. If we won’t punish expressions of hatred when they’re not accompanied by crime, why should we start punishing them just because the haters crossed the line into illegal actions?
There Esprix, just trying to keep it lively for you.
Matt what the hell are the frankies? LOL
Husband, nine and a half and third, nine. And yes I know that for a fact.
Now, how bout some help?
Practice? My gag reflex is pretty good to a point but that is pushing it. I don’t find gagging very sexy. Might be a good ego booster for the guys tho.
The frankies = disorder contracted late at night and resulting in promiscuous disclosure of personal information. Usually but not always in the presence of alcohol.
As for you, Kricket, I can only say what the old man said to the tourist who asked how to get to Carnegie Hall.
I have a problem with the idea of a ‘GAY’ gene than can be passed from generation to generation. Then you would expect gay men to have gay children somehow.(How are you going to gestate it? In a box? - John Cleese to Eric Idle - The life of Brian) But that’s not what we see in real life. There are no families of gay people like the Johnsons or the Wilburies. There are just people. Some are gay, some aren’t. Some are white, some aren’t.
And thinking that gay people can choose their sexual orientation is not the way I understand it. I am attracted to women. There is no room for choice there. I wouldn’t go the other way. Attempting to imagine it, I COULDN’T go the other way. I don’t find the idea the least bit appealing. But my point is, some people do. They didn’t choose who they were attracted to, they are just attracted.
I don’t find it necessary to look for reasons to excuse gay people because they are gay. It doesn’t strike me as a disease, a poor choice or a character flaw. There may be a genetic difference that will be discovered someday but, if so, it is a fairly common trait. I like my gay friends, male and female, just as they are. I don’t find anything wrong with them.
I love those articles which attempt to “explain” homosexuality as the result of genetics or the environment or whatever. I read one a couple of years ago that stated that a preference for other men (no mentions of lesbians) was a relic from our hunter gatherer days, where being in close proximity to other sweaty men would result in better catches (FOOD CATCHES, SILLY)than a caveman who enjoyed being with females (presumably doing knitting or whatever cave(wo)men got up to in those days.
So my questions are these:
are all team sports merely sublimated homosexual orgies?
why don’t you see lycra clad cavemen with little leather caps and Doc Martins boots in anthropology text books?
I love those articles which attempt to “explain” homosexuality as the result of genetics or the environment or whatever. I read one a couple of years ago that stated that a preference for other men (no mentions of lesbians) was a relic from our hunter gatherer days, where being in close proximity to other sweaty men would result in better catches (FOOD CATCHES, SILLY)than a caveman who enjoyed being with females (presumably doing knitting or whatever cave(wo)men got up to in those days.
So my questions are these:
are all team sports merely sublimated homosexual orgies?
why don’t you see lycra clad cavemen with little leather caps and Doc Martins boots in paleo-anthropology text books?
For that very reason - they crossed the line into illegal actions, which makes it the worst form of intimidation. We punish extortion and harassment, which could be argued to be “not crossing the line into illegal actions” (i.e., physical harm), so why not add punishment for a hate crime, which could arguably be said to be extortion, harassment and intimidation, to the punishment for the crime committed (rape, murder, assault, whatever)? Again, I haven’t made up my mind about the issue myself, because I see your point, but I’m also just trying to keep things lively…
Actually, I have no idea. I know I’ve been hearing grumblings about them since the late 80’s, and I think the atheists’ lawsuit begain in the early 90’s, but I have to imagine that people have been complaining about these policies for quite some time.
Kinda like disagreeing with rain (to quote someone famous). A gay gene may actually exist - can’t argue with scientific fact, and it’s hard to understand how you can “disagree” with that fact.
You are under the erroneous belief that only gay people would have a gay gene. The idea behind it is that it causes, in a way, a predisposition. Every human being may very well carry it in their genetic makeup, but what triggers it, what causes 10% of the people out there to turn out lesbian or gay, may very well never be understood - it’s too complex a combination of factors. But if the gene exists, the gene exists, and people will be passing it along from generation to generation, and that has nothing to do with the orientation of the parents. So be it.
And you would be correct. I have yet to find any evidence of anyone ever saying, “Henceforth I shall be gay.” Someone once told me they were going to do it, but I never heard if they did or not.
A very wise person from this very message board once pointed out to me that defending the gay community by saying, “It’s not a choice,” implies (a) that if there were other options we would have chosen them instead, (b) the message “It’s not my fault,” which is a statement of guilt, and (c) the point is completely irrelevant, as every person has the right to choose their own way of living their life, and no one should be discriminated against because of it.
No excuse necessary. Much obliged.
They are when my friends watch them…
They had little taste back then… and still don’t.
I’m going to have to do a little more research. What the heck is Orgonomy? I wonder if Dr. Boyfriend has ever heard of them…
Hoo boy. You’re probably gonna wish you never asked.
Orgonomy is the “science” of orgone energy, an omnipresent life-energy “discovered” by Wilhelm Reich in 1939. Ol’ Cecil Adams did a column about Wilhelm Reich and his orgone once: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_073.html.
The American College of Orgonomy (ACO) considers themselves to be the followers-on of Reich’s practice of Medical Orgone Therapy, which combines conventional Psychoanalytical and Character-Analytical techniques with Reich’s “vegetotherapy” and occasional use of orgone accumulator boxes, orgone “shooters”, and a bizarre contraption called the Medical DOR Buster. ACO was founded 10 years after Reich’s 1957 death by a former colleague of Reich’s named Elsworth Baker. Like Reich himself in his later years, ACO has a politically very conservative (one might almost say reactionary) bent. Ten years ago, one of their members even went so far as to claim that the collapse of Communism in Russia was a Communist plot! They are convinced that most homosexuals turned to same-sex gratification because they were afraid of the intense, anxious feelings the opposite sex stirred up in them. They claim that it was a grievous mistake for the American Psychological Association to take homosexuality off its list of psychological disorders.
Now, since there are a few cases of practicing heterosexuals that are actually homosexuals in denial, I can believe that there might also be a few cases of practicing homosexuals that are actually heterosexuals in denial. But it seems highly unlikely that most homosexuals fit this bill.
Um, er, well, uh, thanks… but I wasn’t talking about you. I forget the woman’s name, but I enjoyed her posts. I’m sure it’ll come to me in a dream… but I still wuv you! smooches back
Hey Esprix. I hope what i’m about to describe doesnt make me sound all gossipy, but well, it concerns a friend.
In our little circle of friends, one of our own who I will call John (not his real name), has always been speculated about by various friends in our circle as possibly being gay. I first heard it from two of my guy friends who were discussing it one day while we were hanging out (before I actually met John). Most of it centered around some of the mannerisms he exhibits. Anyway, in the two and a half years that i’ve known him, even i’ve wondered about him (as much as I hate stereotypes, he does fit a lot of the “gay” stereotypes). I can’t remember any small get together when he was mentioned in conversation that someone asked if he was gay.
Now, recently, i started hanging out with my circle of friends again (they work, and we just havent had time to get together). So, i go over to my friend Mike’s place, and two of my other friends are there. They tell me the “news”. Supposedly he’s been hanging out a lot with a new guy friend of his. So, again the speculation starts up. We talked a bit about it, but we didn’t really get into it at all. The next day i’m at my one of my other friend’s apartment, and she’s having a party, which John and his new friend are invited to. I’m out on the patio, and I hear her say “John’s boyfriend”. Now, i’m not sure what to think at this point. I haven’t heard from his mouth whether or not he is gay, and it’s all basically speculation.
Now, i know that this one friend who said John had a boyfriend knows him quite well. In fact they went to HS, and have a close bond because of it (they’ve hung out more together than they have with our other friends, including me). But, i didnt want to ask her about it really, because I hate gossip that might be false (i know i sound gossipy here, but well, just ignore it :)). Soon, David and his friend walk in. It’s like these two were separated at birth. They seem perfect for each other. Hell, i’d say that this new friend of his would be a perfect BF for David, and good for him (note, he’s never had a relationship with anyone that I know of through the two and a half years i’ve known him).
Anyway i’m a bit confused as to what to think. All of us in our circle have resigned ourselves to not saying anything about it to John until he tells us first. I think it’s a good idea, because it wouldn’t cause a rift in our relationship, and make him feel defensive. He’s not hurting our realtionship by not saying anything (at least we feel this way), although if he is gay, he may think we already know and doesn’t think he needs to say anything.
So, are we wrong to speculate about him like we have? Am I wrong to jump to the conclusion he possibly is gay?
Who’s David? Or did you make a boo-boo and David is “John’s” real name?
You know, I hate situations like this. On the one hand, you’re right - asking him might be detrimental and put him into a defensive position, and the assumption is that if he were comfortable enough to tell you, he would, but he hasn’t, so you have to assume there are other mitigating circumstances preventing him from telling you (if, indeed, he is gay). On the other hand, he shows up with a guy, people are obliquely referring to them as boyfriends, and he’s not saying anything, almost daring y’all to say something to him.
Problem is, there’s no way to tell which is the accurate scenario.
You have two choices - ask, and take the chances; or don’t ask, but make him know you’re open to him telling you himself. I mean, I have a co-worker who has basically come out to everyone as a lesbian… except me! Imagine that - someone not coming out to the gay guy! And it’s not like we’re just co-workers - we’re like buddies, we go out to lunch, we go out after work, I even moved to another department and we still hang out together. But evidently she came out to another co-worker who casually mentioned it in conversation, and I was floored. (I’ve always known she has a “roommate,” but when people deal with me I assume it actually means roommate, not a euphamism for spouse.)
Personally, I’m a fairly blunt guy, so I’d just ask (which I’m thinking about doing with both my co-worker and my cousin, who basically the whole family knows is an open secret). Dr. Boyfriend, however, in a similar set of circumstances, went ahead with the assumption and then tested it during conversation. “So a bunch of us are going out to dinner after work. Why don’t you invite - what’s your partner’s name? Bob? Why don’t you two come with us? It’ll be fun!” Turns out he was right. So refer to John’s boyfriend as such, or even just start inviting the two of them out together, and maybe eventually it’ll slip out.
I will be on vacation and without internet access for about 3 weeks from roughly July 28 to August 21 (details are in the “Esprix is away from his desk right now…” thread in MPSIMS). Ergo, I am formally and humbly requesting that my gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered colleagues please take over in my absence, as they have so ably done before, and answer any questions posted in the Gay Guy thread until my return. (Sqrl, matt, goboy, Doobieous, oldscratch, beakerxf, neuro-trash grrrl, Chef Troy and all of his devotees in the Bi Guy thread, even Otto if he ever decides to come back, and several others who I haven’t seen around for a while - this means you!)
And anyone who is interested in a little something I’m sharing on the board, feel free to check out the “Esprix & Dr. Boyfriend” thread.
But I’m still around for the next couple of weeks, so don’t panic quite yet.
I see the Gay Guy is as keen as he is wise. So much for me trying to keep names secret. Yeah it was a boo boo. Anyway, that’s what I get for having these questions pop into my head at 5 am in the morning
Hmm, it might also be that we never hang out together enough. Damn real life! :). Anyway, he might be a little scared to tell us if his friend is in fact his BF. I dont know why, none of our circle are homophobic. Also, no one’s ever talked badly about homosexuality at all.
Exactly why none of us want to say anything. We dont want to situation to turn out ugly if David’s (i might as well use his name…) friend really is just a very good friend, and end up pushing him away.
I think this is the best option. Now i’m going to go out on a limb and say this, but I haven’t told them about me yet. I just never really got around to telling them, and for me, getting really deep and personal is hard (hell, i have a hard time saying “i love you” to my parents). Anyway, now that i’ve seen that they really don’t care if one of us is gay or not, i feel the time to tell them is soon. I just need to hang out with them and break the news to them. Perhaps that will allow David to feel comfortable enough to tell us he’s gay, if he is gay.
Yeah, imagine that! Wow Esprix, she came out to another co-worker instead of you. Hmm, i’d think you were the best person to tell first.
I’m wondering why no one’s asked about me. I know my guy friends dont suspect anything because they were talking about taking me up to a strip club with them (i’d go for the comraderie, but not for the women,of course). I think i may need to tell them about me before that happens.
Well, we all like David’s friend. He’s a nice guy. So, i dont think we’d need to ask David to bring him along to parties. I might need to work up a spine and try what Dr. Boyfriend did. That may prompt David to say if he’s gay, or tell us “he’s not my partner”. I think my friends and I are just overly considerate to say something like that, so that’s the reason we havent said anything directly to him.
LOL, well that’s should be no problem since David likes to drink. Though, I havent seen him drunk since he usually has to drive home. Hmmm…
Thanks Esprix. I knew you could help give some insight here.
5 am in the morning – brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department, who reminds you to get tested for the HIV virus, remember your PIN number, and use the ATM machine.
Oy. But that’s a good “oy”. I’ve now read * all * of ATGG II, my poor exploding eyeballs are now demanding better housing (who’s got a pretty face with a vacancy?) but dammit, I’ve just gotta answer some of these questions.
Position makes a difference. Um, how do their tools turn? If he points north, well, approach him from the north. In other words, get in a sixty-nine position. I generally find it more comfortable when a dick isn’t heading into my sinuses. Plus, it helps with the gag reflex.
More on gagging: practice breathing in through your nose as you go down. That’ll tend to pull the soft palate up just slightly, lessening the gag. Some people find that time of day can make a difference; I’ve seen recommendations for morning, for example. Doesn’t work for me, but it’s worth a try. And certainly don’t try any of this right after a big meal.
One final note: Guys do tend to be bigger than women in lots of different directions, including the nose and throat. Gay guys may enjoy giving head better simply because we’ve got a little more space to work with than do women.
(a suspicion – part of having a deeper voice might well be related to having a larger cavity for the sound to bounce around in… am I blowing smoke, Dr. Boyfriend?)
Actually, one route that I’ve seen proposed (I think it was in a Tufts study, I’ll check) was that the gene might be transmitted through the maternal line, much like color-blindness. The key isn’t the gay dad, it’s a gay maternal uncle. And all of these is very speculative at this point, anyway.
As a Big Ole Fag living in Big Ole Fag central, Chelsea, New York City, and having summered in the Pines for the last three years (I needed a break this year) I kinda got a perspective on this one.
“Fire Island” in a literal sense is a barrier island next to Long Island, about 20-25 miles long and no more than a mile wide. It’s got about a dozen different communities on it. The two gay resorts are neighbors; the older (dating to the 20’s as a gay town) is Cherry Grove, and the newer is Fire Island Pines, or simply, The Pines. There’s an excellent history of the Grove, “Cherry Grove, Fire Island: Sixty Years in America’s First Gay and Lesbian Town” (Esther Newton, Beacon Hill Press: 1993), which I recommend, and a nice thumbnail description of the contrast between the two communities in the Fodors Gay Guide to the USA.
The Grove was gay pretty much from the beginning, whereas the Pines initially grew up in the 50s as a self-consciously “family-oriented” alternative to the libertine Grove. It didn’t last long. By the sixties, more and more gay men were moving to the Pines, which despite the influx retained a prudishness (it’s thought that what we call regular old disco dancing first emerged in the Pines because men were not allowed to touch). In the seventies, wealthy, closet-y gay men (read: Calvin Klein) started building enormous, fabulous homes in the Pines, and the Grove never competed. In fact, the Grove made a point of welcoming those who couldn’t (or didn’t want to) fit in with the butch, conservative “Pines Queens.” One event from this time is memorialized still: the annual Invasion on July 4th weekend, where hundreds of men in drag “invade” the Pines by boat from the Grove. It started as a real protest: Pines tight-asses looked down their noses at the overly flamboyant, queeny, and often working-class men from the Grove.
Nowadays, the difference isn’t as hard-edged. The Pines lost its closeted overtone; now it’s much more a question of money and, to some degree, gender. The Grove attracts a fair lesbian contingent, often with children. The men of the Grove tend to be from Long Island, whereas the Pines is generally limited to Manhattanites, with their Manhattan paychecks. Women aren’t wholly excluded, but there are a few of them. Even the odd straight house or two gets organized; how that happens I’m not sure; I’ve always wondered how many of them last a whole season.
How it works: Most people have a share in a home. The prices for houses are ludicrous; even Manhattanites can’t afford them, especially since oceanfront homes have a nasty habit of falling in during bad nor’easters. So groups of guys get together to rent. A “half-share” is generally a bed in a room with a roomate, every other weekend. A full share can either mean a room with a roommate every weekend, or a full room (no roommate) every other weekend. Now, the going rate for a season (the standard is May 1-September 30) is about $2500 - $3000. That doesn’t include transport, cleaning service, pool service, utilities, the ridiculous grocery prices since everything’s brought by boat, etc. I budgeted about $4,000, all included. And this for the privilege of living like I did in college, albeit with a pool on a beautiful island surrounded by beautiful men.
And then there’s the party scene. The Pines is all about partying. There’s a schedule (take notes, girls, in case you’re ever out there). You arrive on Friday by ferry (there are no cars in the Grove or the Pines). At 8:00, “High Tea” starts, which basically is a cocktail hour with inflated prices instead of drinks specials. That takes place on the deck of the Pavilion, one of three bars located by the ferry landing. At 10:00, everyone rushes home for dinner. That’s usually followed by a brief disco nap, then at midnight it’s time for what everyone calls “Sip-n-Twirl,” more drinks + mediocre music and a small dance floor. By 2:00 a.m., most men move back to the adjoining Pavilion, this time to the main dance floor, for whatever major DJ is in that night. This scene tends to be fairly druggy, with fair amounts of K, coke, X, and crystal floating around (less crystal lately, it seems). The Pavilion usually closes sometime between 6 and 8 a.m. In the meantime, most have returned home (maybe alone, maybe not) and by noon they’re up again.
Now, this is the “regular” schedule, which is often interrupted by private parties. One quickly develops keen instincts as to one’s social ranking by what party invitations one receives. It’s sort of an all-male, tanned, muscled version of Jane Austen.
Repeat As Necessary.
This is not exactly “wistful,” is it? It can be fearsomely boring, but never wistful. Actually, I think there was a period in the late 80s-early 90s when wistfulness may have verged on overwhelming. There were so many who died. But by later in the decade, with a booming economy and triple therapies, much of the life had returned. Including the Meat Rack, the bushes between the Pines and the Grove, which gets all kinds of activity at night, especially on a full moon. I like to see what I’m eating, so I don’t indulge; and the mosquitos can really put a crimp in it anyway.
Now, the description I’ve given is bound to get me into trouble. Sex and drugs and rock-n-roll always do. Is it the whole truth? No. Most gay men aren’t regular drug users, but there’s a subculture, especially prevalent on the Island, which definitely accepts it and lots of guys intake on occasion. I’m too much of a control queen to be able to enjoy them, so I don’t, and for me it gets a little tedious to have to keep asking myself “Is he staring at me glass-eyed because he think’s I’m cute, or because he’s in a k-hole, or both?” Are guys sluts? Given half a chance, yes, and the Island provides a chance and half; but that’s not all, either; surprisingly, there are more happy couples out there than people like to acknowledge. Is everybody a social-climbing creep? No, I’ve also met some really wonderful people out there; I’ve discovered that to be invited to fabulous parties, very often all you have to do is ask.
So why not return? Well, a lot of what is salient about the Pines is equally true of Chelsea, where I live, and it’s often the same people. It’s a little like the Jewish neighborhoods in Brooklyn, where whole blocks would simulaneously decamp for the same resorts in the Catskills. A bit too much context for me.
And sharing a house with lots of other gay boys can (meaning: will) result in Major Fag Drama. There’s something fundamentally weird about adults, many of whom have lived alone for years, suddenly forced to share space (and not qualify for a fabulous prize at the end). The house I was in had space galore, but there’s always egos and it can get exhausting.
So that’s Fire Island. Other communities I know of: Saugatuck, Michigan comes to mind. Russian River, outside SF. Hippie Hollow in Austin. Oh, and there is a gay section of beach along the Mississippi in Minneapolis. I lived there a summer and never got to it; the summer was 1993, the Great Flood, when it never stopped raining.
