Peter: did you not include 12 & 13 year olds? I mean, many teens are mature beyond their mere years would suggest, but that seems “below the line”, and over here, a BIG “no-no”. By the way, I would say the same thing, hetero OR homo.
Re “legal”, what is the earliest age for “dancing/stripping” or “posing” over there?
Whew! I have now read all of the posts in both threads, and I didn’t see this question. So here goes…
Dear Gay Guy(s),
I saw a TV movie a while ago about a young woman, named Dorothy, who was kicked out of the military because she was a lesbian. I don’t remember the title or most of the details of the story, but one comment caught my attention.
An enlisted man befriended her and they began to spend a lot of time together. At one point they went to a movie, and the guy introduced her to a group of his friends, who all claimed they were all friends of Dorothy. (She didn’t have any idea what they meant by that, by the way. She just thought they were being really friendly to her!) Later, she asked her friend about it and he clued her in. But he was a bit surprised that she didn’t know he was gay. He then added something to the effect that he thought she was a lesbian, on the grounds that if a woman likes to be around gay men, then it’s a good indication that she’s also gay.
Have you ever heard of that idea?
I hadn’t, but then I’ve led a sheltered life. I found it rather interesting, though, because I have a pretty accurate, although almost entirely unconscious, way of picking out gay men. That is, almost every time I find myself really enjoying the company of a man, he turns out to be gay. (I’m a woman, in case you hadn’t already figured that out.) Mind you, given that I’m a music major and an opera singer the odds of a friend being gay are fairly high, but still…
I fall along the ‘straight’ side of that bell curve (for the most part ;)), so I never would have come to the same conclusion from my own experience, but I am curious whether there’s any truth behind that generalization. There may be historical/cultural background that I’m unaware of, too. The movie was set in the 1940’s or 50’s I think.
Thoughts?
rivulus
I have never heard the notion that fag hags are more likely to be gay themselves; in fact, I don’t think that lesbians who hang around with gay guys even think of themselves as fag hags (more as just members of the community.)
BTW, are you sure about the identification of that movie? There was an excellent TV movie (true story) a few years back called “Serving in Silence”, but the main character was named Margarethe Cammermeyer, not Dorothy.
matt_mcl wrote:
{sniffle} You mean it? 
beakerxf asked:
I sure liked it better than “Object of My Affection.” First of all, Jennifer Aniston was a wimpy straight girl in love with her gay best friend; Madonna just thought hers was cool. Jennifer and her friend were desperate, so they almost had sex with each other; Madonna and hers got drunk. Jennifer was a wimp and cried a lot; Madonna took charge of her life when she found out she was pregnant. Both ended happily enough, but I just thought “NBT” was a little more accurate to my own life than “OoMA.”
tracer wrote:
Hey, my first choice has always been Sophia Loren (just saw “Pret-a-porte” again last night… {SIGH}) - now that is a substantial woman! And I’d only take Seven if Jeri Ryan wore the implants - those are what do it for me.
waterj2 wrote:
Good God, man, have you seen her lately? She’s not looking good these days. Hell, her drag imitators look better than she does lately!
PeterB wrote:
What’s the latest on the age of consent battle going on over there? I’d been kind of following it but lost track of the latest. Sum it up for us, would ya, mate?
Luckily we don’t have that problem here in the states - there are quite a few male cheerleaders out there. And a lot of them are quite yummy…
rivulus wrote:
Quite an undertaking! Thanks for your interest!
Have women unsure of their sexual orientation hung out with gay men and/or the gay community and eventually come to terms with their own lesbianism? Yes - I’ve seen it happen more than once. Do decidedly heterosexual women hang out with gay men and/or the gay community? Yes - I’ve got several friends like this myself. Between the two, I don’t think there’s a “norm” per se, although I would guess that there are more straight women than lesbians. Why? Personal experience, for one. It also seems to me that once a woman were to come out as a lesbian, she’d want to hang out with other lesbians, not gay men. Sadly, there is still a lot of division between the sexes in the gay community - there are lesbian-only bars, and most of the other bars/clubs are gay male dominated. Of course there is some mixing, but on the whole my experience has been that the girls do the girl stuff and the boys do the boys stuff and they keep to themselves. Even I have to admit I don’t have many lesbian friends (or straight friends, for that matter). Birds of a feather? Dunno. We do mix and mingle during gay pride, though. 
You sound like my college friend Ruth. If we ever wondered whether someone was gay, we’d ask Ruth if she found him attractive - if she said yes, we knew he was!
Esprix
I believe you’re referring to the first story in “Common Threads”, a Showtime Original movie that had three stories illustrating changing views of homosexuality in the 50’s, the 70’s, and now.
Back on “Ask the Gay Guy I”, there was a good explanation of “cruising”. Esprix and others emphasized that cruising consisted of extremely subtle cues, and noted that this derived out of the well-founded fear of gay bashing if a gay guy were to hit on the wrong straight guy.
Do lesbians play by the same rules? My question arises from an experience yesterday with a new (lesbian) friend. She got nabbed scoping out a woman by the woman’s boyfriend, who fired death stares at her. I jokingly chided her on it, saying that she should be a better cruiser than that, and she responded that she gets caught checking out chicks all the time. I proceeded to question her about crusing amongst lesbians, but she could only talk knowledgeably of her personal experience/strategy, which was decidedly unsubtle.
Is my friend an anomaly, or are rules of gay cruising not observed by lesbians? (As always, I’m looking for generalities, to the extent they exist.)
BTW, thanks all for the responses to my post re: “Object of My Affection”!
V. (Just as much a post whore as Chef Troy, but a bit more subtle).
Whoops, I misquoted the tilte. It’s “Common Ground.” For full cast info, check out IMDB.com.
SuaSponte, in my experience, your friend is a rarity but not an anomaly. First of all, it’s different for women. Women in general are much more used to being looked at by other women. It’s just one of those things. Women going to the bathroom in groups is accepted as a matter of course, men doing the same generally raises eyebrows. Part of the gay male cruising ritual stems from the fear of gay-bashing. Once again, women generally have to do much more to be thought lesbians, and when accused, aren’t quite as liable to react with violence, or be confronted with same, physical or otherwise. So, when it comes to “cruising” these considerations have to be taken into account. Speaking, as always, only for myself, my technique usually involves looking around the room, trying to catch the eye of whoever has just caught mine, and proceeding from eye contact. As near as I can tell, this is pretty much all there is to “gaydar”, or once you get right down to it, straight flirtation methods as well. The difficulty arises in interpreting signals. That moment when your eyes meet for just a split second too long could mean attraction, or it could mean “hmm, I wonder how she did that with her hair”, or possibly “good grief, she’s a freak!”. In my case, sad to say, the latter two are far more likely than the first one. Other times (and I’m sure you’ve had this experience too), you just know. Unfortunately, I am usually much too shy to follow through, so nothing ever happens… unless she is as brazen as your friend seems to be. I’ve met a few of this type in my time, and they definitely have their functions in the grand scheme of things, such as keeping wallflowers like me from getting too frustrated. Anyhow, if there is a rulebook, I’ve never read it. I just do what my own instincts, intellect, desires, and neuroses tell me to. Your friend is probably the same way.
SuaSponte
There might be various ways for lesbians to pick up girls, but I’m sure they are pretty spcific to the type of person.
One friend I have is a great conversationalist and a friendly face. She has great success at coffee shops meeting interesting girls. I’ve tried that. I seem to have great success attracting shucksters who want me to invest in their start-up internet company.
However, my friend is the only one I know that has a specific system. All of the lesbian couples I know, got lucky and met online.
My fellow single dykes seem to think that we’ll have some success by getting dressed up and heading for the local dance club. Though, I have yet to see it work. There are various problems with picking up at clubs. First, you can’t talk. I’m drawn to conversationalists so obviously, I’m looking in the wrong place.
Also, I know I’m looking more for a potential partner than a one-night stand. Unfortunately, a club is a horrible place to find someone who is looking for the same thing. You never know if the person who is checking you out is hoping for a quickie or wants to invite you out to dinner.
The biggest drawback of all is that you can’t tell who is unattached. Girls go everywhere in groups. When they dance, they all dance together so the single friends don’t feel exposed. Supposedly, if you’re in the scene long enough you can tell who is the in the couple and who is the odd man out. I don’t think I’ll ever go to clubs regularly enough to get the hang of telling the difference.
So essentially, you just have to dive in and start asking girls to dance and hope they don’t have a SO.
Eye contact does seem to be one way to do it, but I haven’t gotten it to work either. Like nuero-trash grrrl, I can’t tell why they are looking at me, and I’m not often brave enough to approach them.
Fag hags, huh? Lovely. (I guess the wart removal operations didn’t do the trick. :D) Thanks for the answer, though!
The movie goboy referred to, Common Ground, was the one I was thinking of (thanks, goboy!).
rivulus
Of course, darling. Now get in here and eat your tiramisù before it melts and I have to spread it all over you and lick it off - on second thought, take your time.
And rivulus, I will have you know that “fag hag” is a term of the utmost honour and esteem. Show some respect.
Thanks for the explanation. I can see how people would prefer to spend time with others who have things in common with them, whether for support or to share interests. It just depends. As individuals and the culture change, the reasons for joining together would also. The divisions are unfortunate, though. Perhaps they’re sometimes the flip side of having to band together in the first place?
By the way, I appreciate what I’ve learned from this thread, because it’s already helped me realize that my cluelessness has at times made less sensitive towards my gay friends than I would like.
rivulus
Oops. Sorry. bowing and scraping
rivulus
Actually, I’m not sure about that. Certainly, when I was 12/13 I would (IMO) have benefited from such things. Perhaps more so if it’d had been a woman than a nice attractive boy (maybe I wouldn’t be such a deviant). But still. I suspect it’d have been beneficial.
God only knows.
16 for straights, 18 for gays (down from 21). There is always some talk about making it 16 for both; there always is.
It’s illegal for two men to kiss in a public place; I think they’re going to get rid of that soon.
It’s illegal for more than two people to be present when two men are having anal sex, and they even go so far as to prosecute such things (one of the few real victimless crimes, IMO).
It’s illegal for teachers in state schools to “promote” homosexuality (whatever the fuck that means). Consequentially, it means that any kids getting picked on for being gay are left to the mercy of their tormentors, because the teachers feel unable to intervene.
I have only one thing to say that that.
Razz.
grin
Listen honey, I don’t have the luxury of being subtle - if I did, my thread would sink like a stone. Esprix gets all the posts because he’s more glamorous than I am, and has a cute little butt while I make do with the body John Goodman traded up from. Just another example of how bisexuals don’t get any respect from straights or gays. Hrrrmmmph.
(oh, and anyone who feels sorry for me should stop by Ask Bi Guy and post. We’re currently talking about threesomes and whether you’d like your playmates to be the same sex as you, the opposite sex, or one of each - and why. It promises to be an interesting conversation.)
I still love you Cheffy.
Oh, Gay Guy. Why is there a stigma with being a bottom or versatile? I notice that you point out in several different places that you are a top. When you said it, I can only read in that it is an indignant type of response from you. No offense or anything, just wanted to know.
HUGS!
Sqrl
Esprix: You’re a top?? Oh, thank god…
love, Matt
(versatile bottom)
Hoo, sorry, been busy in other threads lately.
goboy wrote:
You corrected yourself, but “Common Threads,” IIRC, was a documentary on the Names Project AIDS quilt, and quite a good one at that.
SuaSponte asked:
As neuro-trash grrrl and beakerfx pointed out, women are not only under different social guidelines in general, but every lesbian is different. It’s also been my experience that lesbians don’t seem to be as sex-obsessed and body-conscious as gay men, so that might have something to do with it as well - I’ve found lesbian bars have a more laid-back, less sexually-charged atmosphere than a gay bar.
matt_mcl wrote:
{hee hee} You animal!
Although I agree with you, matt, there are some female friends of gay men who despise the term “fag hag.” Personally, I see it as a self-esteem issue; similarly, some men hate the word “fag,” for example, but they’ve usually got issues with their self-esteem, sexual identity or internalized homophobia. I’ve always said, any secretary who doesn’t like to be called a secretary isn’t much of a secretary.
rivulus wrote:
Well, I’m pleased to hear that. Like Cecil himself, we’re out to fight ignorance.
PeterB wrote about England’s current statutes:
I remember reading about all the hubub to get it from 21 to 18. Have they considered raising the straight age of consent to 18?
Preposterous. Do they actually enforce this? (Not that the states don’t have similarly ridiculous laws.)
Yes, I’d read about the “Brighton 7,” or something like that? What a bunch of malarkey that was.
A situation created by Section 28 (correct?) I hadn’t considered. Oy. What’s the status on getting that repealed? Or is that only in Scotland?
Chef Troy wrote:
Oh, there, there, honey pie - you know we love you!
SqrlCub asked:
Not indignant at all, but I will agree there’s a whole top/bottom thing going on I’ve noticed before. There was a very funny book I got about gay men and dating and such, and it had some pretty amusing things to say about tops and bottoms. For example, they also pointed out that tops seem to wear their “topness” like a badge of honor, whereas bottoms only whisper about it to the boys that they like. Also, when cruising, a top will go “fly fishing” (hook his thumbs into his beltloops to draw the eye to the required area), whereas a bottom will turn his back to you to show off his best asset. My own personal experience has been that there are way more bottoms than there are tops.
Now, why the dichotomy? My only guess is that, although we all know it’s not true across the board, the stereotypes of the feminine, submissive bottom and the aggressive, masculine top still endure. And, yes, sometimes bottoms seem to be ashamed of their sexual preference, so they only whisper about it (not always true, of course - my friend Mark is the National Bottom Spokesperson, and he could lead his own contingent in the gay pride parade if they’d let him). And then, because of the stereotype, tops tout their preference proudly.
We could also get into why some people are only bottoms, only tops, or versatile, but I’m sure there are as many reasons for that as there are gay people. Me, I’m a top because (a) I like it; and (b) to me being a bottom requires a lot of trust, love and understanding, so I’m not going to do it lightly (and for the record, I’ve never tried it). Being a good bottom is an art form, and I give my partners a lot of respect and understanding if they choose to engage with me. (It’s not really important to me, though - if somebody can only have sex that involves penetration I find them to be generally kind of boring in bed, 'cause there’s lots more to do that’s just as, if not more fun. For the record, Dr. Boyfriend and I don’t engage, and there’s not a damn thing wrong with our sex life! :D) Plus, I cringe every time I think of the first time I had sex {shudder}, so since this is, in effect, my “last virginity,” I’ve decided to save it until I’m married. (And, yes, I had someone picked out for my deflowering, but it hasn’t worked out. 
{SIGH}) Now, I’ve always said that in practice I’m a top, in theory I’m a screaming bottom, but in reality, and eventually, I’ll be both.
By the way, there used to be an old joke that, in country western two-stepping, the follows were always the bottoms. Not true. Me, I’m a damn good follow. I think it falls into that “femme in the streets, butch in the streets” saying.
matt_mcl wrote:
Hoo, boy - I gotta get me ta CANADA!
Esprix
Esprix wrote:
I gotta agree with you here. there are all kinds of imaginatively evil things to do in bed that don’t involve penetration. Since AIDS refuses to go away, I feel it’s more prudent to avoid penetration altogether, even if you do use rubbers, but that’s just my opinion.
Esprix wrote:
The phrase, “fag hag”, I have found, tends to be used by the same gay guys who refer to women as “fish”; it’s just not nice.
Again, I disagree. I understand that gay folk have been using “fag” and “queer” as a way of using the bigot’s words as terms of pride, but I don’t like those words. It reminds me of the way African Americans use the word “nigger” among themselves. Even used in humor by members of the group, the word can still sting. And no outsider can dare to use it.
I’m a feminist. I would never refer to women as fish. And when I use the expression fag hag, it is a term of deep respect, and my female friends take it and use it that way.
Yes, you do.