I’ll answer as a fem-guy who likes other femmes,Susanann. Just as not all hetero guys are attracted to the same type of woman, and not all hetero women are attracted to the same type of man, there is a wide range of “types” that people can be attracted to. Personally, I find androgyny very hot.
I think some get into drag as an explicit way to demonstrate their difference, but it really has nothing to do with putting down women.
A homosexual man wants dick. Whether it is attatched to a drag queen or a macho man.
I echo grendel on this. There are plenty of homosexually-inclined men who are attracted to the type of man considered “feminine”. The point of “drag”, at least sometimes, is that anatomical gender does not necessarily determine individual persona. Gender-bending in whatever form challenges this notion, and the people who subscribe to it. Annie Lennox was once a very androgynous figure; many straight men found her “hot”. It’s like drinking wine: it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks, it’s all about what you like.
Drag certainly isn’t meant to put down women at all. Though this is a strictly personal observation, I think you’ll find that most gay men have many close female friends, the utmost respect for them, and can even appreciate what makes a woman beautiful and sexually attractive – more so than, say, the average straight man can acknowledge the beauty and attractiveness of his fellow man. As comic drag can be, it comes from a place of open-mindedness, not bitterness.
Though Rock Hudson, Montgomery Cliff are offered up as masculine gay icons, we have to remember that they were not widely known to be homosexual at the time they were popular; so the stereotype they fit was that of the “leading man”, not that of the “masculine homosexual”. The sort of current TV images of gay men to which Susanann refers are there because they are comfortable, familiar stereotypes – if not charicatures – which are exactly what most people expect to see, and are therefore minimally threatening. Is it any wonder that Ricky Martin and Tom Cruise stay in the closet?
…and grendel is right about something else, too.
I have a male friend who came out after 7-8 years of marriage (and a child). Given his experience with both women and men, I asked him what was different about sex with a woman vs. a man.
He thought for about ten second and said, “The penis.”
…and grendel is right about something else, too.
I have a male friend who came out after 7-8 years of marriage (and a child). Given his experience with both women and men, I once asked him what was different about sex with a woman vs. a man.
He thought for about ten seconds and said, “The penis.”
Why are homosexuals more likely to gender-bend? It’s not about mocking any gender, or being secretly attracted to it. I think it arises simply because, once you’ve decided to determine some aspects of your gender identity on your own (free from social constructs), you feel more free to play with other aspects. That is, once you’ve escaped “society says you must only be attracted to x gender”, then it’s easier to escape “society says you must only behave with x gender attributes.”
The majority of gay men are butch. The majority of lesbians are femme (though more likely to ditch the poorly made clothes and the uncomfortable shoes). Still, there are gay folks who play with gender, just like some straight people do (at least secretly), and different subcultures have grown in response to it.
I know for a fact that there are plenty of straight men who like to try on silky things, but they keep it private out of fear.
Then, of course, some gay people will play with gender a bit in order to catch the attention of others’ gay-dar. If I’m looking for a hot date, I’m more likely to crop my hair short and dress sort of butch, so the women I cruise will know. If I’m in a relationship, I get a bit more femme-y, since I’m not on the prowl.
Oh, and it’s Joss, not Josh. Joss is evil. He kills all the great minor characters, not just the gay ones… Damn him!
Susanann, my girlfriend suggests that you might find listening to a couple of albums by Pansy Division, especially the song “Anthem”, illuminating on some of the issues you raise.
I totally agree with this statement. Drag is meant to celebrate women (or men). It is the utmost compliment. My sister does Drag King shows. She is not making fun of men… she wants to be one. I would assume it is the same way for most of the men who do Drag as well.
Drag King’s do not want to be men… they want to be drag kings. Same with drag queens.
And doing drag is also not the same as being a transvestite. Drag is about performance, transvestitism is about the clothes. Transgendered people do not identify with their chromosomally based binary gender. Transexual people are the only ones who want to be the opposite chromosomal gender.
If your sister is a drag king and is also a transexual, your sister wants to be a man. If she just does drag shows, then she enjoys performing as a man, taking on masculine gender attributes within the performance arena (and possibly other arenas, that I won’t mention, since she’s your sister), but does not necessarily identify as a man outside those arenas.
Are we supposed to avoid conversations that are too sexually explicit? Well, drag kings like to strap on artificial ding dongs, but that doesn’t mean they want to lose their woo woos.
Women are great, and make great friends. I miss my good friend and fag hag back home, and have found a west coast version. I really need more lesbians in my life ('cause you never know when you’ll need to get your car fixed 
). Femininity is, like masculinity is - it works with some people, and doesn’t with others. Sometimes I find it attractive, and sometimes I don’t. Sometimes I am, and sometimes I’m not (“femme in the streets, butch in the sheets,” to coin a phrase ).
Because that’s the historical stereotype. It is easier for those who do not understand sexual orientation to equate gay with wanting to actually be the opposite gender. You also have concrete examples of effeminate gay men - Quentin Crisp, Oscar Wilde, etc. And effeminate gay men are funny - don’t you watch “Will & Grace?” 
Some are, most aren’t.
Because an effeminate man isn’t “the real thing,” if you mean a woman. A man is a man, and a woman is a woman.
Oh, wait - you’re confusing gender roles and sexual identity with sexual orientation. Believe it or not, those are three seperate and distinct personality aspects, as hard as that is to wrap your mind around:
[ul][li]Sexual orientation is who you’re attracted to;[/li]
[li]Gender identity is the gender you identify as; and[/li]
[li]Sexual identity is how you express your sexuality.[/ul][/li]
For example (and I’m basing this on someone I actually know), suppose a man discovers that he feels like and identifies as a woman (his gender identity). So he goes through gender reassignment surgery and becomes a physical woman. And, then, as a woman, she is attracted to… women! So, as a woman, she identifies as a lesbian (sexual orientation). You could say, “Well, why didn’t he just stay a man if he loves women?” But she’s not a man - she identifies as a woman. And then let’s say, on top of that, that, as a woman and as a lesbian, she enjoys dressing… in masculine clothing (sexual identity)! So we’ve got a butch transgendered lesbian.
And based on psychological reasearch, that’s perfectly natural - nothing odd about it at all, because we’re dealing with three separate issues.
Yes, I know it’s hard to understand, but that’s the way it is.
It’s an expression of any number of things - sexual identity, breaking free of society’s gender roles, playing dress-up (women do have much more fabulous clothing than men do), it feels good to them, or they’re just having fun. But no matter how thin you slice it, it really doesn’t matter.
Some are, most aren’t.
Again, some guys like to do drag, some don’t. If nothing else, it’s an irreverent jab at society’s gender roles and sexual identity pigeonholes. FTR, I know lots of gay men who detest drag; me, I enjoy both drag queens and drag kings - they are some of the funniest and most fun people on the planet. (And yes, I’ve done drag, both for Halloween and for a drag show for charity once.)
I hope, after reading these responses, you’ll change your mind on this. There are as many flavors of gay men and lesbians as there are of straight men and women - of people in general, which we all are. How boring the world would be if we were all the same!
I think in general no drag queen intends to put down women, and no drag king intends to put down men. I think in some cases, there is also an aspect of respect - hence the flattery of imitation.
Who knows? Who cares? I am attracted - physically, spiritually, emotionally, socially - to men, not women. Penises are fun! Breasts are not.
I think your response should be either, “Wow, that was really funny/well done!” or “Wow, I feel really offended at that!” depending on how you feel. If their intent matters in how you interpret it, I think you can safely assume they aren’t intending to insult you or women.
IMHO, that is.
Esprix
OK, this thread is getting way too long. The original ATGG part 5 got lost in the Winter of our Missed Content, so I think it’s time to start a new one.
I will, upon others’ suggestions, take the time to index parts 1-4 for easy reference. As noted in other forums, gay-themed questions will always be appropriate here, but they are also appropriate for their own individual threads as well if the need arises. Also, I will say that, even after the indexing, if you still want to ask a question, regardless of if it’s been asked before, go ahead and do so - if nothing else, new queer folk will have joined the board since the first time the question was asked, and they’ll have some fresh perspective.
I’ll have a Moderator lock this up when I get the OP for part 5 finished.
Esprix
Thank you, I will.
And thanks to everyone else for your comments.
I’m out and proud and have a question for you:
Is there anything about gay men and women that you’d like to know?
I have a question. Why bump an old thread to ask a dumb question?
Well, actually, Sylver, the ATGG threads are sort of exempt from the “don’t bump rule,” since they’re not one continuous topic.
Still, I’ve been working on doing part V for a while, as this thread is getting long.
Lupin, to answer your question, there is one - how did you find your way to the Dope?
Esprix
Just as a suggestion, when we were over on the BBBoy system during the massive crash, Esprix, you had an ATGG 5.0.1 that had a few interesting questions and answers. IIRC, we can no longer access the emergency-SDMB over there, but some of the Mods/Admins can. Would it be worthwhile to ask one of them to retrieve anything interesting as a start on the revived ATGG V over here?
I could ask. I was more concentrating on an index of the first four threads, which will take some time.
Esprix
Many members of minority groups object to people outside their group playing roles within the group. Although there are not as many, some also view one of their members playing a non-member as a betrayal. Do have any objection to straights playing gays or gays playing straight roles?
I honestly cannot see where this would be a significant problem. A skilled actor can “invest” himself/herself in a character and convince you that he/she is reacting in the way that that character would. Perhaps the absolute best such characterization, properly granted an Oscar, was Hilary Swank’s Brandon Teena in “Boys Don’t Cry.” The gay actor playing a gay part or straight actor playing a straight part may have “a leg up” on the reverse situation – but it’s nothing that a good actor’s ability to get “inside” a role cannot overcome.
Nobody complains that Anthony Perkins is not really a cannibal, or Leonard Nimoy an alien – why is this a problem?
(And it’s time for my semi-annual “Where’s ATGG V?” noodge of Esprix.) 
You mean Anthony Hopkins, not Anthony Perkins.
Yes, I do. Although both portrayed psychopaths.