Ask the Icebear (aka guy who visits brothels)

As promised in this thread. I know we already had an ‘Ask the guy who visits prostitutes’ thread before, but I think our experiences differ enough to warrant another one. For one thing, I’ve never broken the law by paying for sex.

Eventhough I’m Dutch and live in the Netherlands, the brothels I visit are mostly to be found in Germany. They are called Saunaclubs and FKK clubs*, the idea behind these clubs is to combine welness and prostitution. These clubs usually have a couple of saunas, a whirlpool, a steam room, swimming pool(s), a solarium and often proffesional masseurs; hence the name Saunaclub. As one would expect in a welness centre, the male clientele walks around in bathrobes (or just a towel). These men in their (white) bathrobes were soon given the nickname Icebear**, hence the thread title.

A clubvisit typically starts by being buzzed in, after which you pay a fixed entry fee that includes the use of all facilities and all food and non-alcoholic drinks (sometimes beer as well). You then get a key for your locker and a bathrobe and/or towels. After showering and changing you enter the club and stay as long as you want (for me usually more than 8 hours). Typically you spend the time between sex by going to a sauna/whirlpool, reading a bit, having some food, watching some sports or talking with the girls or other icebears. In saunaclubs the girls walk around in bikini’s or lingerie (sometimes topless), while the dresscode in FKK clubs means that the girls are fully nude (hence the name) – except for high heels, stockings or sometimes other contraptions, as long as…ehmm the good bits aren’t covered. What happens with the girls (and how) differs from club to club, but in general you could say that when you want to go to a room with a girl, you start a conversation after which you go to said room. After you’re done you pay the girl directly (in cash), the girls are independent and pay the same entry fee as the customers; the club does not get a share.

I haven’t been doing this all that long, but I am fairly active on a Dutch message board focussed primarily on these clubs. Through talking (online and IRL) with other icebears and visiting clubs myself, I’ve gotten to know this scene pretty well.

So far for the introduction, ask me anything about the clubs, the girls, the messageboard or myself. Hell, if you want you can also ask me about the windows in the Netherlands (which I visited before I found out about Germany).

At some point people will always point out that FKK isn’t about sex, etc. I absolutely agree, but these brothels (mis)use this name. In general you can say that in Germany a FKK club* is a brothel and a FKK verein is a club for nudists. When in doubt look at the opening hours and entrance fees.
**I use icebear (and not polar bear) because it more closely resembles the Dutch and German ijsbeer and eisbaer.

Ps I’ll try to check in as much as I can, but keep in mind there’s a time difference and I also have work and a life, etc.

Sounds like fun. What’s the entry fee?

Are the girls trustworthy? (In other words: Do you get what you pay for?)

Are GFs or wives aloud to come?

This interests me, and I’d like more detail about the dynamic, please. Do the women have to jump through any particular hoops to gain admittance? For example do they need to be certain ages/ have certain looks? What about STD testing? Is there a quota for how many can come in and work at once? Conversely, are there ever times when there aren’t enough women to satisfy the customer base? Do women come in as spectators/clients - not as sex workers (with or without male client escorts) or is a woman in a club presumed to be a sex worker and open for business?

Also, given that the women who are working are not under the employ of the club, are there set rates or other policies governing sex worker/client interaction? How common is it for a woman to turn down an icebear’s advances, either because she’s off the clock, not a prostitute, or simply not interested in that particular client? Do any men enter as sex workers, and if so does this get confusing?

Does each working girl have her own set of rules as to what is allowed and what isn’t? Or is there a “house menu”, so to speak? (I would think it would be the former but I have no idea how these work)

The entry fees range from 25-80 euros. It is usually correlated with the ammount of competition in the area. In Nordrheinwestphalen (Cologne, Dusseldorf) you’ll find the most clubs and thus also the lowest fees. Early or late entry may also give you a discount. In places (like Berlin) where there is few clubs, the entry fees are usually higher. These clubs can be found all over Germany, but there are two ‘hubs’ that have many clubs; the earlier mentioned Nordrheinwestphalen (near the Dutch border) and the Frankfurt area (Hessen).

Most girls are trustworthy. If they break a promise, you can always complain at the frontdesk. If this happens more often a girl will be thrown out. It must be said though that most men usually prefer to just pay and not get into these kind of discussions. Also don’t forget that icebears talk amongst themselves and there are quite a few internet forums. I’ve more than once been in te situation, where I reclined a girl’s offers because I remembered her name from negative reports. The one thing we dislike most are broken promises; sometimes you just dont click together, it happens, but saying you’ll do something and then changing your mind midway through is what will get you the scathing reviews.

Not in every club (I believe) and from what I understand it is very, very rare. Yet I’ve seen this three times. The girl will (initially) wear a bathrobe, just like the men. I also don’t think they are allowed to ‘work’, working girls will go through a screening (ID, medical tests, etc) before they are allowed to work at a club. It is funny to see how most men start acting differently when a female guest is standing in theri vicinity.

Do you use condoms? Is that a requirement for the health of the girls and the clients? How do women view these places- normal as going to a gym or skeevy and they’d be upset if their brother went to one?

On your first point, yes. All clubs are private clubs (hence the buzzing in) and girls have to follow house rules (like dresscode). Before a girl is allowed to work there she will have to prove being over 18 and they will give her STD tests. In some clubs the club does this periodically, so you get the situation that all girls are walking around with a bandaid on their arm. As said above, only the sexworkers walk around in lingerie or nude; female guests will be dressed like the men.

Like I said, clubs have houserules. In most cases there is a fixed price for the standard package, but girls may choose not to offer all services. They are not allowed to charge extra for what is concidered standard (or have higher prices for extras than the club specifies). There are a few clubs that amndate that all girls have to provide the complete package to all customers she takes on. And believe me, whether this practice should be allowed has been discussed to death on the messageboard I frequent. Every girl always has the final say on whether she wants to go with a client or not. So if you’re hairy, fat, too big or smell…she can just say no. I’ve only been rejected once (which really did sting a bit) because I was ‘too young’. It will happen that girls ‘take a break’, but they will indicate this by not being in the main area or being wrapped in a towel. Since this is bad business (noone wants to hear, ‘not now honey’), these girls will often find a regular and just ask if she can hang out and cuddle a bit (I’ve had this happen only once). I’ve never seen any male prostitutes in these clubs.

An extra thing to note is that the girl usually have little choice on when to work, together with the club the girls will figure out a timespan where they *have *to be present (they can always stay longer). When a girl first told me this, I was kind of appalled…but it makes a lot of sense (economically). Both the girls and the clubs need as many men as possible to come, in order to achieve this you have to have enough women present at all times. Since most money is made in the evening, this creates a real collective action problem. If you let the girls arrive when they want, they’ll all show up around 7 and leave at twelve…the result would be that fewer men would come (some only stay during the day, others stay for longer), which would be bad news for all parties envolved.

I have no questions for you.

However, this is where I thumb my nose at all those people on the MB who called me naive when I insisted that not every guy who calls himself some sort of bear is a hairy, burly, gay man.

[Nelson Muntz] Ha, ha! [/Nelson Muntz]

All clubs have the same standard package: Kuessen, schmuessen, Fransoezisch ohne beitseitig und verkehr mit, which roughly translates as Kissing, cuddling, French (oral) without condom both ways (so she on you and you on her) and intercourse with condom. Pretty much all clubs also have fixed prices for the extras Anal and cum in mouth (or anywhere that is not the condom). A few clubs go really far in mentioning fixed extra prices, including watersports, rimming, etc.

In most clubs the girls can choose not to offer one of these. The extras are off course always optional, but kissing and cunnilingus are also often not on the menu. I have to make clear though that this maybe 5-10% in the border region and almost unheard of in the Hessen area.

As said above, it is standard for blowjobs to be bareback and actual sex to be with condom. Some girls start out by only offering blowjobs with condom (I personally don’t really mind), but in time they often change their stance because the competition does blow without a condom.

Visiting prostitutes (including these clubs) is just as much frowned upon over here as in the US (I think). For instance, nobody (except the people I met on the forum or in the clubs) knows I’ve ever payed for sex. You sometimes do see groups of friends or colleagues (if there is something going on at the messe) who go together; but I’m pretty sure my friends wouldn’t react favorably to this whole thing. Who knows, maybe they are thinking the same thing;)

I think I missed a bit in my earlier answer. I don’t think the clubs ever turn girls away because there is too many already (if this is the case the girl will probably prefer to go home anyway). As said above, the clubs usually know who are coming in and make sure the numbers are adequate. It still happens that you have days where there are very few girls present (weekdays on mornings in the smaller clubs), if this is really blatant you might get a voucher for free entry on your next visit. If this happens too often, men will stay away (word gets out quickly) and the club will have trouble staying in business.

Also, what I meant with interaction with girls being different from club to club, is that the parts before and after the sex are very different. In some clubs the girls are real hunters and you’ll have girls hanging around your neck all the time. In other clubs the arr forbidden to animate, which means they sit quietly on a couch until you approach them. They still find ways round this though; having pretty girl giving you a smouldering look for 10 minutes on end is far more intimidating than a girl that immediately tries to grab you dick under your towel.

Besides that, some clubs are layed out in a way that encourages short conversations and a quick question about about going to a room; while others have many relaxing couches, so you can easily spend some time cuddling and talking before ever turning to action. And then there is the clubs where it is common to make out a bit before making your decision, and sometimes even getting a sample blowjob (in the public area).

Definately, icebears are seldom gay:p, they can be hairy though!

Thanks. So the sex workers are self employed but do follow a structure and submit to the organization regulations. Your phrasing above (“pay the same entry fee as the customer”) gave me the impression it was less structured.

Eew. I can see why that’s controversial. Also, mandate in what way? Simply if a worker refuses to say, let a client ejaculate in her mouth without a condom, she can’t come in and work anymore? I can’t imagine it’s stronger pressure than that, as actually compelling someone to commit a sex act regardless of her status as a sex worker is straight-up rape and that would seem to be bad for business too…

The closest analogous business model here seems to be the kind of salon where the stylists rent chairs for a monthly fee. There are generally agreed-upon prices and certain stylists have different specialties and regular clients. New clients end up with whatever stylists are free when they come, and they are obligated to be around a certain number of hours a day, rush or not so that the salon doesn’t lose out on potential walk-in traffic even at slow times. The salon provides receptionists, booking services, laundry/custodial and in some cases other supplies. The stylist pays for the right to use the space and the use of the above amenities, and gets to keep all or a portion of the income he or she generates through skilled labor. Some garages have a similar setup with mechanics renting bays. Does this sound about right or am I misunderstanding?

I just put that in to show what they have to pay in order to be allowed to work. But yeah, the whole free entrepeneur thing should be taken with a grain of salt. The girls pretty much have to follow house rules and can be kicked out if management wishes to do so. They are self employed only in the sense that management doesn’t have anything to do with the payments (unless there are disputes between customer and prostitute).

Since cum in mouth is an extra, your example is not entirely correct. But the rule is that when you decide to take a client on, you have to kiss, cuddle, etc. In other clubs girls can decide on a case by case basis whether they kiss or not, here you have to kiss when you take a client to a room. If you break this rule, you get 1 warning (I’ve been led to believe) and then you’re out. Please note the girls can always refuse clients, the mandatory service is just for when they decide to take on a client. I must also say that this particular club has at least 4 other clubs that are less than half an hour drive away, so if you want to be able to decide on a case by case basis, there are plenty of other options.

This sounds pretty similar yeah. Regular clients are such a small percentage though, that all girls benefit from walk in clients being happy about the amount of girls present. Regulars will also tend to visit on the quiete moments, so then the girls with many regulars are present on these quiet moments anyway.

I forgot to add one important thing in my reply. Intercourse without condom is really not done. There are a few clubs that offer this (whenever a site claims that girls are tabulos, this means they are open for alles ohne), but they are hardly mentioned and few icebears will admit to visiting.

Even in the normal clubs (>90%) it does sometimes happen, some girls may even offer it for extra money, but I’ve never seen it. To give an idea about how serious this is taken: in all forums I’ve seen (a lot), whenever someone writes a report where intercourse without condom happened they are to make sure to be very carefull not to say what girl it was. As I said, it happens (often in combination with the drinking that also happens), but identifying a girl that does this is a complete taboo… if somebody does mention a girl by name that had sex without a condom, it will be deleted before you can say ‘reported’.

All I can think of is “That’s one hot tub I don’t want to sit in”.

Well, most whirpools will have a sign that says: ‘No eating, no drinking, no smoking…and no intercourse in the whirlpool’.:stuck_out_tongue: But even in Germany rules get broken:eek:

Are the girls usually local German girls?

Is this legal?

How much do the different services you mentioned cost?

Good question! Short answer is no, I think nowadays about 70-80% of the girls is Romanian. Germans are probably the next biggest group though. Otherwise you’ll find girls from all over Europe and some from Asia or South-America. It really is quite an international mix.

In general you can probably say that the poorer countries of the EU ‘provide’ the majority of the girls. A few years ago (before I ever visited a prostitute) there were a lor of Polish and Czech girls, nowadays they can make a decent living in those countries (both as prostitutes or in a different profession).