(Blushes) I don’t think of myself as attractive, but I am very happy with how I look. Clinically I know I don’t look very good - this is a photo from this afternoon in a changing room, taken by Fierra. It’s my real figure and face (I’m not wearing any makeup; I was in a rush. I’m not even wearing hose.)
It’s an intersex/transsexual profile. The hair has coverage but it’s too thin, the shoulders are too broad and there is too much muscle on the arm (of course, the fact that I do martial arts, fencing, and tennis also contribute to that…), the hips too narrow. Thank goodness I have normal “female sized” hands and feet for my height (my feet may be slightly small for my 5’5"), I have natural “cheekbones,” and I’ve been told my legs are pretty nice to see.
Nonetheless, outside of clinical land, I love my appearance and I am happy.
I posted this because I’ve had numerous PMs requesting another photo.
But as to your post, what about the fact that I’m intersex? Does that in your mind change how you would think about sex with me?
I don’t see anything but a female in that picture. A somewhat nerdy female, but nothing but female. I hope the nerdy part isn’t offensive.
As for your comment “what about the fact that I’m intersex? Does that in your mind change how you would think about sex with me?”
Yes. Yes it does. Of course it does. How couldn’t it? Again, I’m very open minded, but I’m 100% heterosexual. You are attractive, but I couldn’t move forward with that knowledge.
I hope you’re cool with frank answers; I think you are.
I like to think of myself as “Lara Croft nerdy.” Yeah, I like fantasy land.
I’m sometimes stunned that I can look at a photograph of myself and not cry, not feel hatred, not feel despair. There are vanishingly few photographs which exist of me from age 8-30’s, because as soon as I could avoid the camera, I did.
I do spend a lot of time on my body. My athletics and dancing, strict dieting, etc. I have some things I’d like to change, like a little less tummy, which at my age only lipo is going to remove. My hair does look thin, but my mother tells me it looks exactly like her hair when she was my age. I have even coverage with no grey or white.
I’m going to be hitting 50 before long, and I’m not doing so bad I think. I feel an abstract sense of despair at the life which I lived which was ruined living in the morass of gender dysphoria and deep depression. I try to just keep on dancing and partying.
Apropos of the subject, since transition I’ve had some sexual escapades which would turn some folks’ hair white. I receive a lot of offers for casual sex from women, men, transwomen…everyone except transmen. Several threesomes, foursomes, one fivesome I declined (actually, I would have been #6, just like “The Prisoner!”). I played strip Twister for real and it got really freaky. Had a leggy blonde attack me in her kitchen until I swooned. Was invited by a lesbian couple try to get me to join them with…toys. Lots of toys. Did a BDSM photoshoot where I tied up another attractive blonde girl in all sorts of poses and situations. Have have had several women and transwomen beg me to be their mistress. And the men…the men proposition me so many times. I used to be propositioned by crossdressers, but I think word got around that I was absolutely not interested.
And *everyone *involved knew from the start exactly what I am from the beginning.
So if I can get it, why can’t others? Because this is casual, freaky sex with people already in the community or familiar with the community. It’s a diversion, it’s fun.
But the other transitioned women I know want a simple kind of life. They want to meet Mr. Normal Nice Guy, who lives in a subdivision in a 4-bedroom Tudor, has a professional job, dresses well, is kind, strong, funny, and, well, normal. They tell me they long to be going for those walks along the lake, watching football snuggled on the couch, going out to a nice restaurant and maybe a little dancing on a deck under moonlight. They can all get the freaky, fun sex if they want. They want a relationship, love, a future where they grow old with their “old man” and they take care of each other, maybe retire to Boca and play bridge and watch *Matlock *re-runs.
Sadly, I fear that most of these women, my sisters, will die alone. Partners like my Fierra are so rare that it sometimes makes me the subject of some catty envy.
Of course. I hope you’re cool with my long and winding answers.
Much more so. Dressing as a professional woman in the workplace seems to cost about 5-10 times as much as dressing as a man for the initial outlay.
When I was dressing as a boy I had about 4 pairs of shoes, and would only need to buy about one new pair per year. I have more than 50 pairs of shoes, and because they are much more fragile they need replacing much more often.
Suits and professional men’s wear seems to cost about the same per ensemble than women’s (less shoes and accessories, such as jewelry), but I need to have more variety as a woman - I’m expected to do so, at least. I had about 20 men’s outfits, and typically rotated between about 10 favorites. At last count I had about 300 women’s outfits, and I just bought 13 more today because they were 20% off, and they looked great. :smack:
But then you can do a lot with a top and skirt. A nice skirt can look very sharp and yet cost very little - people see skirt and they think “dressed up” a lot of the time. I am aggressive at the quality second-hand stores and consignment shops. I have a personal shopper who looks for things and texts me when she finds a deal, and if I like it come by after work and try it. (she does this for free, because…well, I don’t know but I think she has a crush on me ) I have skirt suits which can cost $600+, and ones which have cost $10 - and they look about equally sharp.
Jewelry MUST match the clothing, and if you wear a lot of colors like I do, that means a lot of jewelry. And not just one in every color. Say I need green - is it peridot green? Emerald? Turquoise? Unakite? (real stone) And is it set in yellow or white gold? Do you want the white silver of, well, silver, or the grey silver of platinum? Or the clear silver or white gold? Or the dull silver of German .800 silver?
Hose can be expensive. As a man I wore generic black dress socks which lasted for years and were something like 5 for $20. I wear high-end Hanes which is $9 a pair, with an average life of 5-10 wearings. When I started I didn’t know how to wear hose and I was destroying one pair every 2 days. Stockings help because when one runs you still have half the pair to wear, but then you need garter belts which cost money if you want quality…I wear stockings about 1-2 times a week, hose the rest of the time. Tights off and on.
Another thing is, well…when I had to dress as a boy, I dressed in the same basic thing every day. Black or charcoal suit, severe tie, white button-down shirt, wingtip Oxfords. Different versions each day, but the same basic thing. I could have been a good “man in black.” I did this because I didn’t give one fuck about trying to look like anything “special.” I wanted to look like a generic “suit.” Now I want to stand out in a good way, which is why I have so many looks. I can be in any color of the rainbow and it’s perfectly socially acceptable. I can wear anything from pantsuits (I only own one) to peasant skirts to things with steampunk or cosplay accents, to Pendleton and Alex Marie and Dior. I can wear everything from fluffy warm wool to the sheerest silk which flows like water. My body is a canvas and I’m very good at putting the right shapes and colors on it.
I can see a hundred other women out there ready to pounce and say “yeah but you’re an outlier”, and I am (wow, don’t I know it). And with proper sensible choices a woman can dress close in price to a man in some ways, but then you sometimes end up dressing like a man - blue jeans and t-shirts or long-sleeved tops, with athletic shoes. Then again, even things like jeans can cost $10 more for the same exact thing in women’s compared to men’s.
You are far too self-critical (which seems to be a near-universal female trait in our culture).
I know plenty of ciswomen who have hair as thin or thinner than yours, more muscular arms than yours, and “man-sized” hands and feet. The angle of your jaw, just under your ear, appears less-squared off than many ciswomen (men’s jaws tend towards a right angle, women’s are more obtuse in general). Yes, you have broad shoulders and narrow hips but it’s not a freakish proportion and if everything else from your attire to your body language is feminine it’s not going to jump out at the vast majority of people.
Of course YOU notice the “off” things about yourself more than anyone else because it’s your body and you have issues. You, like other transgender people, are also put into the unfair position of needing to prove over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over that you are “really” the gender you say you are, and no amount of proof ever being satisfactory for a certain percentage of the population. A similar slice, of course, also will demand over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over of someone who is intersex "what sex are you really?" when that question is unanswerable in terms they will accept.
The other thing is that appearance is only partly about the physical. People who are comfortable in their own skins and happy usually come across as more attractive than people who aren’t comfortable and happy. While your intersex condition has no doubt brought you much pain over the years it does have the consequence that your skeleton was less masculinized than the typical person who spent decades with their body soaked in male levels of hormones. Based on the few pictures I’ve seen of you, if I met you on the street I doubt very much I’d guess you spent most of your adult years as a man. Yes, you have “mannish” shoulders, but plenty of ciswomen have traits that might be described as “mannish” or in other unflattering terms (check out the recent thread on Gwyneth Paltrow where her feet are described as “gigantic”, when size 9 feet are common for an American woman (the average is size 8) and well within “normal” range for someone of her height, and “clownish”).
The problem of course, is that if a transwoman doesn’t pass physically she’s an object of ridicule and scorn. If she does pass then her past history comes out she’s reviled as as a liar and deceiver purposely trying to trick people. In other words, you can’t win at that game. I’d say “then just don’t play” but of course, short of opting out of society entirely, that’s not an option.
You look fine. A random picture of a normal woman. Having read the thread, I of course, look for tell-tale signs of maleness, signs I could find in anyone to some degree. I’ve taken plenty of random pictures of my wife, who is beautiful, and she doesn’t look that good in a lot of them. If I started searching those pictures for signs of maleness I would go insane and heaven forbid anyone search my picture for imperfections. Really, I don’t know how people can look at pictures of themselves for more than a few seconds at a time.
My question is about the kind of issues a trans person might face as they age. Now that I am in my later years, my average male body is starting to have issues with the male bits: Prostate problems, bladder problems, ED, hernias, ‘flow’ difficulties, ‘low T.’ The list goes on and on. My wife has, of course, a whole 'nother set of issues: menopause, hormone replacement. I won’t try to list them. Gravity is working hard on both of us too.
I imagine a trans person could have unusual combinations of the two problems as they age. For example, do the hormone treatments they might be getting replace or need to be modified when they enter the ages where the rest of us start being prescribed hormones? Do transmen have to worry about ‘low T’ issues? Do transwomen have the hot flashes of menopause?
I imagine, since sex is about as intimate as two people can get, there’s an element of “if they can have sex with me and have a good time, then my previous gender history may not seem like such a big obstacle.” involved as well.
Thank you for answering my bafflement in a kind way,** Una**.
I guess part of my bafflement springs from…well, why? Why do people have such a problem with dating transfolk? I just don’t get it at all…I’m 100% sure I’d have no problem dating a transman and I’m not special (assuming he was attractive to me of course, but that goes for everybody).
I just don’t get it. I mean, I can kinda-sorta see the initial “eek-factor” of unfamiliar body parts, but still…I just don’t get it. What’s the problem, you know?
Men are different, I guess.
Do you think younger transwomen will have an easier time dating, since their cohort will be more familiar with trans people, much like younger gay kids have an easier time of it now?
Oh, incidentally…my first exposure to transpeople was through The World According to Garp, of all places. Have you read it, by any chance? What did you think, if so?
I’m guessing (keeping in mind I’m a strictly heterosexual ciswoman) that part of the squick factor is the social categories of “heterosexual” and “homosexual”. Even for people who accept homosexality as normal alongside heterosexual, transgender people still violate the neat categories. While a few people might go “oh, that’s interesting” or “oh, not so important as I thought”, a lot of them will spaz out over the boundary violation. For men outraged at being “tricked” by a passing transwoman I think part of it is internalized homophobia - OMG, I was attracted to someone who is really a man! I might be gay! I might burn in hell/lose my social standing/be an object of ridicule/get beat up/get murdered/whatever. Bluntly, it scares them.
40 years ago, when “gay panic” could get someone out of consequences for assaulting or killing a homosexual, there were outbursts of rage and violence in response to homosexual advances for, I believe, related reasons - OMG, a faggot approached me! I must be a sissy/acting gay/whatever and I could be subjected to all the crap I’ve been dishing out to homos! Quick! Act MANLY and MALE! (Not that I think beating the crap out of a homosexual demonstrates manliness, I’m just using it as an illustration of possible thought-process)
So, I think, when a transwoman’s past biological history is revealed to a cisman she’s either dating or having sex with the fears generated include any or some combination of the following:
I’m straight but maybe I’m gay after all because I was attracted to a man even if that man looked like a woman - engage homophobia
I’m too stupid to know the difference between a man and a woman
There’s something wrong with me because this freak found me attractive
I’m going to suffer horrible bigotry and oppression for being seen with/having a sex with a freak
I was lied to/deceived/conned - how can I possibly trust this person?
Of course, those of us sitting here in this thread can probably point out logical flaws in the above, but in intimate matters you’re not operating logically, you’re operating on emotion.
I presume transmen have their issues, too, but they aren’t as widely discussed, at least not outside their communities, and while a woman reacting badly to a revelation that her date/partner is a transman is a definite possibility, even if said woman reacts violently her smaller size and strength than the average man is going to make death less likely. I have no idea how homsexual men react to transmen (if anyone does know I’d be interested in the information). Transmen have the disadvantage that their bottom surgery is far less satisfactory than for transwomen so concealing their status as transmen through a lot of types of sex act is going to be nigh-impossible. That doesn’t mean transmen aren’t killed when discovered, it certainly has happened, particularly if they’re discovered by cismen who are hostile to the whole concept of transgenderism. I’m not sure if transmen are really so much rarer than transwomen, or if they pass better socially.
Now, speaking frankly, as I’ve mentioned so far in life I’ve been strictly heterosexual, I mean really slammed to the far side of the Kinsey scale. While I’m not going to say never, I doubt I’m ever going to be sexually attracted to either someone strongly intersex, ciswoman, or transman. While I have nothing against those folks and wish them well they just don’t get my motor running. That said, there is a polite way to handle interest from categories you’re not interested in. I have been propositioned by lesbians and I like to think I’m polite when I decline: sorry, I’m only attracted to men in that way. That would apply equally to either cis or transwoman lesibans, or bisexual woman.
Transmen? I honestly don’t know. To the best of my knowledge I’ve never met one - but then, discussion of gender/genitals/past medical history is not the first topic I discuss with people. Actually, I almost never discuss it with people, not even those I’ve know for years. It’s entirely possible I’ve met dozens of successfully passing transmen and never knew it. No one I’ve dated to the point where the clothes would start coming off has ever revealed such a thing to me (which is the latest point at which I’d like to know, personally). I’d like to think that, at worst, I’d say “this is an issue for me” and keep voice level and pleasant, bad temper absent, and be gentle as possible to the person. Would I continue the relationship past that point? I honestly don’t know.
I have known a couple of people with intersex conditions in real life, but that’s such a broad category, only a minority of them fall into the “transgender” category, and while we’ve been friends either they were women/identified as women so an intimate relationship would never come up, or there simply wasn’t any mutual attraction I was aware of (such as the identified-as-male-attracted-to-males individual - not at all interested in a girl like me).
Yes, you really do understand. In these threads you consistently show you understand “us” better than about any cisgender woman I’ve met, barring the spouses.
Aging in transgender persons is something which is a little dicey and which has been poorly studied. For a while estrogen and testosterone do act like “fountains of youth.” I mean look at the photo of me again, I’m not far from 50. My skin looks and feels like a 20 year-old woman’s, my energy level is crazy insane high. It’s a running gag at work when we girls to get together and talk about our weekends, and then it comes to me: “OK, Una, we only have 5 minutes…”
Most physicians tend to take transgender women off estrogen in their mid-60’s, although locally the physicians, who have a LOT of experience, will keep us on it until 70-80 years, albeit at a low(er) dose. When transwomen lose our estrogen at old age two things tend to happen - first is, our bodies collapse somewhat suddenly and dramatically. The second thing is that our mood can collapse suddenly as well. All of a sudden we’re going through a sort of menopause, except without the hot flashes - it’s just the fatigue, weight gain, bone loss, etc.
The mental and physical effects of being removed from estrogen at that age can lead to suicide. Many, many transwomen therefore have to return to buying their medicine illegally.
There does not seem to be any real body of evidence that continuing estrogen for life results in a net negative for transwomen. However, due to the lack of enough study physicians base their judgement on the cisgender population and try to assess the benefits of estrogen versus cancer and cardiovascular risk.
I know much less about elderly transmen; I do know that many physicians try to take them off testosterone in their 60’s.
Having a mix of parts does lead to interesting situations. Most GRS/SRS surgery does not remove the prostate gland, for various reasons. So we not only have to have the unpleasantness of mammograms, we also have to have prostate exams! They get us from both ends… Transmen can have trouble getting their insurance company to pay for female procedures and problems, although that is getting better thanks to ACA. What me and my extended trans family have found is that after ACA most insurance companies and providers suddenly stopped being obstructionist and started covering pretty much anything except GRS/SRS, which is a major step forward.
Broomstick (again) did a pretty good job of answering, although I will add a couple of things in a minute. But I wanted to answer this directly.
Younger ones do have an easier time because of the reason which you said, and because the hormones will have a much more profound effect on someone who is younger.
For instance, take breasts (please! Sorry, bad joke). Even post-puberty, what seems to happen with transwomen is the following:
Started hormones in late teens - normal breast development.
Started hormones in 20’s - breast development about 1 cup smaller than mother and sisters. Some asymmetry possible.
Started hormones in 30’s/40’s - breast development 2 cups or more smaller than mother or sisters. Asymmetry likely.
Started hormones in 50’s/60’s - will be lucky to achieve an “A”. Asymmetry guaranteed.
The girls I know in their early 20’s look pretty doggone good after just 12 months of hormones. No they won’t get their shoulders narrowed, and their hipbones will not enlarge, but they will get padding on their hips. (see my photo above; no hip padding for me).
Now with transmen, you throw the book out the window. Testosterone is a powerful transformative agent. The beard comes in very quickly, the voice deepens, body hair appears…everywhere…OMG…and the muscle starts building. Unless the transman was born with large breasts or really matronly hips, they will pass very easily very quickly. I’ve only ever met a couple who didn’t, and even then they really looked like effeminate boys.
I think most cisgender men ex post facto claim that this was the only reason they broke up, but then I’ve seen them hook up with cisgender women who were walking trainwrecks of skeletons in their closets popping out at the wrong time, and the men don’t seem to have any trouble. Like the man who dumped a lovely mature professional transwoman and hooked up with a women with 4 kids from 4 prior boyfriends, creditors hounding her across the country, and a fake name and fake IDs which didn’t even line up with each other (why does your license say “Michelle X” and your credit cards “Paula Y”?)
Typically they don’t intermingle, in fact historically it was taboo in the gay community to have a transman boyfirend (it would destroy your “gay cred”). But things are changing, slowly.
A frequent source of debate, but going from medical records for those who seek treatment and hormones, the ratio is still about 1:3 to 1:4 transmen to transwomen. Socially and “out”, the difference appears to be about 1:20.
To add to your anecdote about who you would date - I only am interested in women. The difference is, after transition and with the mental/emotional changes which came permanently to me, the correct way of saying my preference is “I’m only interested in women, but the parts are irrelevant.” If their mind, mental gender, comportment, social presentation is female, and they are on hormones, then I don’t really care about the parts. Believe me, I can work with whatever’s there (or not). Another intersex person? Unless they identified as “strongly leaning male” in terms of their mental gender and gender presentation, I would be happy as well.
I like transmen very much, I like to be around them more than cisgender men. Why? I don’t know, but it’s likely due to a sense of kinship rather than anything else. Shared life experience, shared ostracism, shared trials - and triumphs.
Thank you - I’ve been trying very hard to wrap my head around this topic. I still don’t get it on an emotional level in many ways but I do try to value people as people and try to understand points of view I don’t share.
I think that reason is an easy out that lets them avoid thinking about other reasons they reacted the way they did. Sure, sometimes there might be a level of deceit/fraud at work, but as you point out deception is common in the dating/mating game. If the cis-party pulls out the “deceit” card that party doesn’t have to self-reflect on homophobic issues, intolerance towards other categories (birth defects, disabled, non-standard sexuality, whatever), and the social costs of hanging out with marginalized groups. It puts all the blame on the trans-party instead of realizing the cis side of the equation comes with baggage, too, and might be acting in an unreasonable manner.
But does a transman always need hormones? Historically there have been a number of cases of men who lived decades in a community who, upon death and subsequent autopsy were found to in fact be female. I can recall off the top of my head a stagecoach driver, a pirate (well, when she got pregnant the jig was up, but before that she was thought to be male, except for her boyfriend, who was apparently the only other person in the know. On the cramped confines of a wooden sailing ship, yet) and a jazz musician, two of whom lived prior to the 20th Century and therefore would have had no access to male hormones. It makes me wonder how many other people born into female bodies passed as men for long periods of time that, had they lived today, would be transmen and availing themselves of pharmaceutical help.
See, that’s why I said “I don’t know” about a transman. I really don’t know, not having been in that situation. Would my affection for that person overcome some anomalous parts/traits? Maybe I would - I seem to have a higher tolerance than average for physical imperfections. Let’s just say that rather than saying outright “no”, as many people do, I am willing to entertain the notion it’s possible. Just unlikely, given that I’m in a marriage already and not ending to end it in the foreseeable future.
In the “old days” gender presentation was a lot more vested in clothes than now - a person dressed in male clothes would present male to a much larger degree than today, simply because the idea of a woman in male clothes was bizarre. So the brain reads “good-looking boy” not “girl in trousers”, because the former is a lot more likely. Hence all the old-timey novels of romantic heroines dressing as boys to escape horrible fates or run away from home simply by cutting their hair and stealing male clothing. I mean, sure, much of it was satire, but the basic premise - that a girl in trousers looks like a boy - was believable.
We see what we want to see (or are trained to see), as it were.
Even today, I bet plenty of grown women could pass as teenage boys fairly easily, at least to casual observation. Of course, these days, many of them would just look like lesbians, but there you go.
Charley Parkhurst, Anne Bonny and Mary Read (both of whom were part of Calico Jack Rackham’s crew), and Billy Tipton.
For clarity’s sake, Bonny almost certainly wasn’t trans and Read probably not - both were living as women at the end of their lives (while they were passing as men*, they knew each other’s true gender, and Rackham (Bonny’s lover) knew both). Parkhurst likely was (I don’t know enough about them to really say, but that absolutely nobody knew until they’d passed on strongly suggests it), and Tipton certainly was (he stopped living as a woman entirely pretty early on, and had little contact with anyone who knew him as a woman).
Well, during the period where they knew each other and were passing… Bonny started passing when she became a pirate (some time before Read did)…Read was actually raised as a boy for reasons that aren’t entirely clear.
Do you know, do you have ovaries, fallopian tubes, and other female internal parts?
Does your body naturally produce natural female hormones like estrogen? You mentioned having female puberty. Do you have periods now? Do you have the normal monthly ups and downs associated with female hormone cycles? When you hit your 50’s do you think you will go thru menopause?
) I have skirt suits which can cost $600+, and ones which have cost $10 - and they look about equally sharp.