OK, I’ll use this first box to say, this is going to be about A Song of Ice and Fire (aka A Game of Thrones.) We’re going to speak freely, and we’re not going to spoiler box anything. Even if it hasn’t been published yet, but somebody “has a source that says . . .” we’re not going to pussyfoot about.
If you aren’t done watching/reading yet, or don’t want any hints about what might be coming, this thread is not the place for you.
OK, so now that we’ve go that settled.
I am constantly amazed at the amount of speculation on the interwebs, that still considers Ned Stark’s bastard to be in question. It seemed so painfully obvious to me, that Quentyn was Ned’s bastard, and that Doran thought he had been given Rhaegar’s child.
It also seems to me that there must be three babies int he switcheroo, and maybe four. Lyanna’s baby, Ashara Dane’s baby, Wylla’s baby, and possibly one of Elia’s.
This is the first I heard if such a complicated thing. My thoughts:
Ned has no bastard. I think it’s completely out of character for him in the first place. But even if you think he does, I don’t understand the leap from “He does, and its not Jon.” What purpose does such a convolution serve?
I don’t think anything comes of Ashara Dayne and Wylla. They are at most their own separate story, and more liklely, are just red herrings that Martin threw in to keep us guessing.
Elia’s Aegon is dead, killed by the Mountain. The Young Griff is a fraud, or at beast, a Blackfyre descendant. Who is exacly in on it being a fraud is up in he air. Griff himself may truly believe it. Varys and Illyrio almost certainly know the truth, although there’s a slim chance one is playing the other. Connington is probably being lied to.
Jon Snow is Rhaegar’s son, and that will be a key reveal soon.
Quentyn is who everyone thinks he is. Not sure why you’d think anything else. Doran Martell has zero reason to want anyone who is not his direct blood in that position, and Aegon, if alive, would be a bastard. There is very little legitimacy to claimt he throne, from Doran’s POV.
Curious how you think your situation is a more likely storyline.
I also think that Jon’s switching of the Wildling babies was supposed to clue us in a bit. Lyanna, Rhaegar, and Howland had clearly hacked up some sort of plan to keep the babies safe, and it required Ned’s active participation and total discretion (even to the point of keeping Catelyn in the dark.)
We know the plan required:
Another mystery, the girl who helped Catelyn across the bridges to get to the Aerie. She’s about the right age, and a great deal of time was spent giving us her age and temperament. Hmmmnnn.
And one more, Howland Reed’s dedication through all this. He fought at the base of the tower to keep Lyanna safe. There was a full year between the tourney at Harrenhal and Rhaegar’s abduction of Lyanna. A year during which her father was away and she could not be wed. Could she and Howland have had a child? Could it have been Meera?
Or is Danaerys really the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar? The timing does fit, it’s only Viserys’ report that his Mother also gave birth to Danaerys that stops it from being true. What if Lyanna didn’t give birth and die at the Tower of Joy, but traveled with But wouldn’t that make Danaerys in front of him in the line of succession? Aerys ->Rhaegar ->Danaerys IF she’s Rhaegar’s child? What Grandmother (Rhaella) wouldn’t help keep the child safe if she could? And remember, Doran Martell’s mother was one of her Ladies in Waiting. . .
In that scenario, could Lyanna have had twins, Jon and Danaerys, who were separated at birth to increase the chances of the line surviving? Then Quentyn to Doran and Ashara and Wylla’s babies are still a mystery.
Really? How come?
Maester Aemon certainly seemed to recognize something in Jon, and to think he was family. OR at least, he shared an awful lot with Jon for no other apparent reason.
Doran expected Quentyn to be able to survive with Danaerys and the dragons. Quentyn had obviously been led to expect that the dragons would respond favorably to him. And it is very common in Westeros to foster a child in order to build loyalties between families, much the way English royalty used to wed back and forth. The description of Quentyn’s appearance and temperament sound much more like a child of Ned Stark, as does the dragon’s reaction to him.
And I’m not sure that “likely” needs to come into it. Martin doesn’t work that way. It’s just fun to dig in and try to find the possibilities.
Sorry
" . . . but traveled with Rhaella and gave birth at Dragonstone." She could well be living somewhere.
I will say, I think as has been referenced that this is the first time I’ve ever heard this theory.
Also I don’t buy it. I think it’s obvious that R+L=J applies. The only speculation is whether the obvious isn’t true.
I mean, think about it. Lyanna is at the Tower of Joy, in Dorne. Rheager gets killed on the Trident (with 3 Kingsguard fighting in that battle with Rheager - these numbers are impt), and then Aerys gets killed by 1 Kingsguard “defending” him. Where are the other 3 Kingsguard? Well, they are guarding the Tower of Joy. These 3 Kingsguard at the ToJ include Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of Morning, the almost universally acknowledged greatest knight in the realm, and the Lord Commander himself - Gerold Hightower, the White Bull. 3 Kingsguard guarding Lyanna? The same number as fought with Rheagar? 2 more than guarding the King and Elia and her children in King’s Landing?
Ned and Howland Reed and 4 others show up after King’s Landing has been secured - the only ones to survive are Ned and Howland. And Lyanna is in a bed of blood (likely dying from giving birth) telling Ned “promise me”. The ‘bastard’ is Ned saving Jon, the son of Lyanna and Rheagar. If Robert knew about Jon’s parentage, he could have killed the kid. Ned calling him his bastard protects Jon.
Nothing else really makes any sense.
What jsexton said.
Quentyn is Doran’s biological son. Not even a hint of other possibility there.
And Howland and Ned conspiring to hide Lyanna’s son by Rhaegar I can buy, but conspiring with Rhaegar himself, as you suggest? Yikes. And Daenerys is Rhaegar’s sister, there’s no reason to complicate that, her claim to the Targaryen throne is basically the same either way.
I don’t have words for how far-fetched all of that is. It’s like examining JFK’s assassination and assuming that Lee Harvey Oswald acted with the aid of aliens and ricocheted the bullet around the motorcade three times.
Wait, what? Where the heck is this speculation on all this baby switching coming from?
R+L=J is pretty much set in stone at this point.
Aegon, obviously could be the real deal, or a pretender. My money’s on pretender. There’s a slight possibility he’s Ashara Dayne’s son (to account for the purple eyes), and the fact that we only see him with dyed hair means his hair could be dark (like Ashara’s) and not silvery-blonde like a real Targaryen (if he is a fraud).
I have no idea why anyone thinks Quentyn is anything other than Doran’s biological son.
People find the baby switch a bit far fetched to be practical. Plus The golden company is a blackfyre (targ lineage from the female side) loyal exile army, so it makes sense for them to be supporting a claim by a blackfyre.