Game of Thrones: Was the big reveal botched? (Open Spoilers!)

Cafe Society
1

In anticipation of the upcoming season, I was re-watching the last episode, and I have a bone to pick. Let me start by saying I haven’t read the books, and I tend not to take to the internet for the endless analysis and speculation to be found there. I just enjoy the show and expect it to stand on its own.

Now, this is a very complex universe, with lots of different characters and storylines, and for the most part, they do a very good job of keeping it all coherent for the average viewer paying more than a modicum of attention. BUT…

The fact that Jon Snow is a Targaryen is arguably the show’s biggest and most important reveal so far. And yet, if I hadn’t gone on line to figure out what the hell happened, I still wouldn’t know it, even after two viewings. (I thought I just might not have been listening closely enough the first time, but now I don’t think so.)

We see time-traveling Bran witnessing young Ned Stark rushing to Lyanna’s bedside after she’s given birth. She whispers something to him that we can’t hear, Ned is handed Baby Jon, and Lyanna says, “Promise me, Ned.” And that’s it. (Here’s the scene.)

So we now know that Lyanna was Jon’s mother. And I guess we were supposed to recall that Lyanna and Rhaegar Targaryen had… something going on, and put two and two together. And I don’t need everything handed to me on a silver platter. Still, I honestly had no idea what to make of it on my own.

I think it should have been made clearer. Am I alone in this?

2

Didn’t they have the scene from season one with Ned and Robert at Lyana’s crypt talking about exactly that on the “previously on” during that episode? i seem to recall that was the case.

3

Oddly, the HBO site posted the family tree up since last year where Rhaegar is named Jon’s dad. But what fairly casual viewer would know? Unless there’s no casual viewer of Game of Thrones?

4

The scene you linked to also gives you a visual clue, who that baby grew up to be. And the technique of transitioning from a younger version of the same character to an older one is well established in film and on tv.

5

Perhaps they assume that any viewer who hasn’t read the books will be consulting the internet heavily anyway, just to keep track of who all the characters are.:slight_smile:

But at any rate, I’m not sure how much it matters if a viewer doesn’t understand that Rhaegar is Jon’s father, or even remember who Rhaegar is. Jon doesn’t know who his true parents are yet, so whenever he does find out, that’ll be a chance for that portion of the audience to get up to speed. Hopefully at this point they at least understand “Jon isn’t Ned’s son, he’s Ned’s sisters’ son.” And then later, they’ll find out Jon’s dad is Daenerys’ brother – and then probably think, “Oh, that jerk who got gold poured on his head?” :smiley:

And that misunderstanding won’t really matter either – presumably the important thing at that point is just that they understand that Jon is part Targaryen, which gives him at least an arguable claim to the Iron Throne.

6

It’s kind of a Skywalker moment - I thought Jon might marry Dany as part of an alliance. Less likely now. Although I guess he could now marry his cousin Sansa???

7

Why less likely? The Taygaryens are all about keeping it in the bloodline

8

I don’t see why it’s a problem. They did an obscured reveal to give hardcore fans something to dig up and prompt a lot of discussion online between seasons. When the show comes back in a few weeks and it becomes a significant plot point, I’m sure it will get clearly and explicitly mentioned by multiple people. So if you’re a non-internet watcher of the show or someone binging it in the future, you either get the reveal and get to feel special about it, or you miss it now and will get the more blatant reveal later.

Heh, when has being related slowed the Targaryans down?

9

Or the Lanisters!

10

I thought it was clear as a bell, especially when the image of the baby transitioned into an image of Jon Snow.

11

you know I only catch the show in bits and pieces here and there but I think at some point dragon girl is going to get an arranged marriage (again ) and be declared empress if for no other reason than the peasants are going to get tired of the incessant war and she seems to be the peoples champion where ever she goes

12

I may have misunderstood, but I think the point the OP found hard to follow was not that Lyanna’s baby was Jon, but rather that the father was Rhaegar.

13

I don’t think it’s hard to tell that the baby was a young Jon Snow, but how does that make it clear that Jon Snow’s father is a Targgaryan? That’s what the OP was confused on, not whether the baby was Jon Snow.

14

Where are you seeing family trees? I went on the HBO web site, and couldn’t find any. If you click on the character of Jon Snow, he’s described as “Ned Stark’s bastard son.”

15

Yes, you’re right, I got it wrong.

16

I rewatched the entire series from the start, in retrospect it is obvious Jons father was Rhaegar from about episode 2. Not perfectly obvious but all the clues are there.

I think its pretty amazing they managed to keep this hidden from viewers for as long as they did considering they have been hitting us with a “Jon is a Targeyrian” shaped bat for several years now.

17

What were the clues?

18

I’m sure you’re both right that it will all come into clearer focus down the line, so I suppose I shouldn’t have been too worried about it. Still, I don’t much care for the idea of a show needing to be supplemented by other sources. Whatever one thinks about the show as compared to the books, each should stand as its own work.

Anyway, I’m not mad. Still love the show, and still going to watch! :slight_smile:

(Also, until tim314 pointed it out, I thought Rhaegar was Daenerys and Viserys’s father, not brother. So Dany is Jon’s aunt, not his sister. Oy.)

19

Book readers have been suspecting (and most of them convinced) that Jon was the son of Rhaegar (it hasn’t been revealed yet in the books), so they were all waiting for this confirmation. This theory was probably the most discussed and mentioned on the internet, so most fans of the series who hadn’t read the book were aware of it. So, I think that it was assumed that a large part of the audience were expecting, and would readily understand, this scene. And probably would explain to others who didn’t.

However, if you assume a completely naive audience, it’s true that it’s non obvious that Jon is Rhaegar’s son. All the elements needed to understand are there, though. Jon parentage has been made a mystery since the beginning (first and second episode of the first season), it is known that Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar. We find her in this season protected by the king’s guards, and Rhaegar is again mentioned. And she’s giving birth to a son. So if you spend a moment thinking about who might be the father, the answer isn’t difficult to figure out. I guess someone could think it was the king guard killed in the previous episode, since he was so fiercely protecting her. Or Robert Baratheon. But these possibilities don’t seem very likely to me.

So, not understanding this, in my opinion requires to not have read much about the series, because it was difficult not to find this theory mentioned somewhere, to not have discussed much the series events with other people, and to not have thought much about who the baby’s father could be. I wouldn’t know what percentage of the audience would fit in this category.

In any case, even if a significant part of the viewers didn’t get it, it was something that another significant part of the audience had been waiting for impatiently, so it was a great scene for them. And for the others, anyway, it’s obvious that this will be disclosed much more clearly soon, so they too will have their reveal moment, only later. I would note too that there’s still some secrecy shrouding this birth. For instance, as the OP mentioned, we don’t hear what Lyanna says to Ned. There might be a significant reason why. Or maybe it’s just intended to delay the full disclosure. After all, we still can’t be absolutely certain that Rhaegar is the father. Some have hypothetized that it could be the mad king, for instance. If during the next season, Jon is told : “your father was the dawnstar knight” or “your mother was a virgin” or whatever, that could be a big shock for a lot of people (and Martin would laugh until his last day about this one).

So, no, the scene wasn’t botched IMO. It was a big reveal for a lot of people as intended, and it still keeps some mystery as intended.

20

I think it does. But not everything needs to be made blatantly and immediately obvious, either. As I said, naive show viewers could understand, and if they didn’t, things will be made clear later (and meanwhile, they might keep wondering : “but if it’s not Ned, then who is the father?”, which isn’t a bad thing, either).