If I may intrude, “The Origins of Jon Snow” shows most of the hints given in the show prior to season 6.
And if you’re interested in a detailed analysis of the “R + L = J”-theory (Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon), you could watch the Tower of Joy playlist.
Thanks!
Personally i want to know the story of Ned’s crew who got dragged all the fucking way to Dorne just to die.
The most relevant one is Howland Reed. The only one to live.
My money is still on “conceived by midichlorians”.
Who is also Meera and Jojen’s dad, for those who may not know.
We know beyond all reasonable doubt.
Might as well say we don’t know Jon is Lyanna’s. I mean we didn’t see her give birth. Maybe one of the midwives switched the kid!
I 100% agree. I knew because of knew the speculation, but it is super hard to figure out from the show alone.
Until Martin writes it down I’d say we still have room for doubt. Preston Jacobs disagrees with R+L=J in the Tower of Joy playlist listed above.
I think, this is one of the differences between show and books: the tv-version is as clear as they can be without saying it that R + L = J is true, the original is more ambivalent.
And there are so many inconsistencies in the books about the “real” history of events and people that the narrator is clearly unreliable, and the pov-structure is integral to obscure the truth in plain sight.
Based on G.R.R. Martin’s novels, Lyanna’s baby is probably going to turn out to be not Jon Snow but a new character, Prinz Freddirick Bountmatten, raised by castrated chicken farmers in a very large bottle in Casterly Rock, who is going to be introduced as Major Character Number 6,392 along with his spiritual advisor and newest religious reformer the Lolly Dama in novel 7, A BUTTLOAD OF NEW PEOPLE.
Another clue left out of that clip is the scene with Tyrion when Jon realizes that Tyrion is the only one who told him the truth about the watch, all those people who supposedly love him raised him to join the worlds armpit of social outcasts. He is hurt and baffled as to why Tyrion told him the truth when none of them would. Ned knew Robert would kill him if he ever found out so he sent him to the wall to protect him.
Yeah, good catch, Critical1. And I think you’re right about Ned’s motive on the show, the books paint another picture …
I never even guessed Jon might be a Targaryen until I read this thread. If that scene was meant to be the “big reveal” it missed me completely.
For some reason I was also thinking that Jon and Denarys will eventually get together.
By the way, assuming Jon is Rhaegar’s son how is he related to Denarys?
Rhaegar was Danny’s older brother, so Jon is her nephew.
Out of curiosity, what did you deduce from this scene?
LOL. I’m terrible at picking up clues, I figured it was just a straight forward depiction of Jon’s birth. Honestly I didn’t have a clue about who the mother was supposed to be or her connection to Rheagar.
I’d forgotten that the Mad King had a son, or that he knew Jon’s mother.
The big clue at the Tower of Joy as to who Lyana’s babydaddy was the fact that there were Kingsguard guarding her. Including Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning and apparently the awesomest of all Kingsguard.
And whom Ned points out should probably be off protecting his king who’s in the middle of a war that’s maybe not going so well. It’s almost as if there’s something at the Tower of Joy that Rhaegar thought was more important to protect than his own life…
Aerys II had one daughter and two sons (legitimately); his younger son, Viserys, died in season one (all scenes with him here).
The war was over at that point: Rhaegar and Aerys II were dead and Robert sat on the Iron Throne.
Everything about the Tower of Joy is strange.
Somehow, Ned learns the location of his long lost sister Lyanna.
The most likely source is Ashara Dayne, sister of Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who is going to be killed at the Tower of Joy. Other likely candidates are Varys who gave this information to save his position (and life) or Barristan who might have known Rhaegar’s secret - or the whereabouts of his fellow Kingsguard.
But there’s a problem: book-Ned went to Storm’s End from King’s Landing to lift the siege, which is strange if he had already known where his sister was hidden: is it really plausible that he would have decided to take such a detour, or that Robert would have ordered it or not ridden with Ned to free his beloved Lyanna?
Isn’t it more likely that Ned learned her whereabouts either from someone at Storm’s End or during that time by message, because Robert was not present to accompany Ned to the Tower of Joy?
In that case, Varys is one of the most likely (but anonymous) sources of information, followed by Ashara - though lets not forget that she had an equally strong reason to keep quiet.
In any case, Ned rode to the Tower only with northern i.e. trusted companions. It’s quite possible that he already knew to expect trouble of the kind that needed to be dealt with quietly.
At the Tower of Joy they met three (in the show two) Kingsguard, and they fought to the death.
Why?
Rhaegar is dead, the Targaryen rule has ended, Robert is the new king. Lyanna is in no immediate danger from her loving brother or his trusted companions. Robert isn’t present, so the child’s life is not necessarily in danger either, at least not yet. Getting killed - or kill the mother’s most powerful kin and best friend of the new king won’t improve the child’s safety either …
So, why fight? Why not talk, explain the situation, try to find a peaceful solution that is likely to improve the odds of the survival for the boy in the tower?
Maybe the Guards were simply suicidal, but that doesn’t explain the short exchange between Arthur and Ned:
Arthur Dayne: "And now, it begins."
Ned Stark: "No. Now it ends."
What is supposed to begin here, Arthur Dayne?
Maybe Preston is onto something with his explanation, that the death of the guards is a willing sacrifice in a blood ritual - after all, many Targaryen were firm believers of prophecy, and Rhaegar’s motives for his incredibly stupid and totally uncharacteristic actions wrt. Lyanna are still unknown to us.
Of course, the show will likely ignore the deeper layers of the story; it has smoothed out most of the contradictions and oddities presented in the books, and the characters are far less complex.